How interesting that Big Men now get some special attention from Crean

[MUSF]

Speculation? You say! Well you're mistaken-----the best way to develop a big is in  individual postup drills one on one 20 minutes a day before practice with the coach who knows what he is doing standing over his every  that's not "speculation"------that's a fact!

I'm not questioning that.  Your assumption that those drills were not done under Crean is complete speculation.

I don't care how many exclamation points you use, it is still the definition of speculation.

[RawdogDX]

  I guess I don't understand the player's comments when faced with the reality of what happened.

I know we are all thinking it so i guess i'll just be the bad guy and say it...  the 'player' was wasted out of his mind on peyote.

[Murffieus]

I'm not questioning that.  Your assumption that those drills were not done under Crean is complete speculation.

I don't care how many exclamation points you use, it is still the definition of speculation.

He may have had big men drills of some sort----but not postup drills----Burke regressed as a postup center and Barro was very crude posting up----not the sign of well drilled postups-----so either Crean's big men drills were very inefective or he didn't spend much time on them----certainly didn't emphasize them or the product would have been better!

[tower912]

Murf, what do you see as the ceiling for Barro and Burke if they had been taught properly?   I think that both could have been significantly better, but Ooze was always going to be hampered by sub-par hands and Burke was always going to be hampered by his height.

[77ncaachamps]

77, I believe this answers your question about coaching.

The notion that he didn't have a big man developer as an assistant just isn't true at all.  Even after Dwayne Stephens left, he still had guys in there that were noted for their development of big men in other places, it just didn't work out at MU.

Dan Pannagio is considered one of the best coaches in the country at developing big men.  That's what he specialized in with the Trailblazers, that's what he did at Indiana, it's how he's made a living in the coaching profession.   Bo Ellis was the big man coach under Dukiet, O'Neill and Deane, and did a damn good job of it then...and he had the same responsibilities under Crean.  Even Rabadeuax was a big man coach in the past.  He did it under Sampson at OU, working with Najera and Aaron McGhee.

Thanks for the reference.

Panaggio was known as a player developer which did include big men (Wallace, Randolph and Outlaw) and guards (Telfair). But I guess Qyntel Woods blossomed under him as did Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje. No where - I could find - was he exalted as a big man specialist. Even Crean's first words on his hiring reflected that. And he was at MU for only two seasons since he it seemed that MU was just a transitional stop.

Ellis was a big man coach, but only stayed at MU for a year (post Final Four).

But no way was Rabedeaux a big man coach. Did he recruit big men? Sure, Najera and transfer McGhee do come to mind. But he was a backcourt coach: "In addition to his recruiting duties, Rabedeaux's on-court responsibilities at Oklahoma included developing the team's backcourt players."

Compare these guys' bios to Stephens's:

Among Stephens' many responsibilities, he coaches the Spartan post players, while also handling scouting and recruiting duties. Under his tutelage, Spartan center Paul Davis was a three-time All-Big Ten honoree, including first-team all-conference and Associated Press honorable mention All-America honors in 2003-04, while finishing among the top 10 scorers and rebounders in MSU history. Last season, Goran Suton ranked second in the Big Ten in rebounding at 8.2 boards per contest.

HUGE difference there. It actually mentions his duties. Now THAT is a big-man specialist. Crean just was enamored with filling his assistant coach spots with former coaches and neglected to address Stephens's void.

So, Stephens was replaced with two revolving doors and an inexperienced front court coach. I guess that's why Barro, Burke, and others did not develop fully and possibly why big men shied away from MU.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Thanks for the reference.

Panaggio was known as a player developer which did include big men (Wallace, Randolph and Outlaw) and guards (Telfair). But I guess Qyntel Woods blossomed under him as did Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje. No where - I could find - was he exalted as a big man specialist. Even Crean's first words on his hiring reflected that. And he was at MU for only two seasons since he it seemed that MU was just a transitional stop.

Ellis was a big man coach, but only stayed at MU for a year (post Final Four).

But no way was Rabedeaux a big man coach. Did he recruit big men? Sure, Najera and transfer McGhee do come to mind. But he was a backcourt coach: "In addition to his recruiting duties, Rabedeaux's on-court responsibilities at Oklahoma included developing the team's backcourt players."

Compare these guys' bios to Stephens's:

Among Stephens' many responsibilities, he coaches the Spartan post players, while also handling scouting and recruiting duties. Under his tutelage, Spartan center Paul Davis was a three-time All-Big Ten honoree, including first-team all-conference and Associated Press honorable mention All-America honors in 2003-04, while finishing among the top 10 scorers and rebounders in MSU history. Last season, Goran Suton ranked second in the Big Ten in rebounding at 8.2 boards per contest.

HUGE difference there. It actually mentions his duties. Now THAT is a big-man specialist. Crean just was enamored with filling his assistant coach spots with former coaches and neglected to address Stephens's void.

So, Stephens was replaced with two revolving doors and an inexperienced front court coach. I guess that's why Barro, Burke, and others did not develop fully and possibly why big men shied away from MU.

Fair enough... we can slice this anyway you want.

I would say that Crean did hire an adequate assistant who specialized in player development, you say he didn't.

We can debate it all day long and research the internet from here to eternity, and it's not going to change your mind or my mind.

Again, I'm not exactly sure why there hasn't been a strong post presence at MU in a long time. I think it's probably a combination of factors (some of which Crean had control of, some of which he didn't).

The only reason I've posted in this thread is because it seems like people love to boil down complex situations to one simple point. "It was Crean's offense", "it was his lack of a big man coach", "it was because Crean hates big men", "it was because he didn't recruit in Wisconsin hard enough", etc. etc.

I can't believe it was/is that simple, guys.

I just can't. 

[77ncaachamps]

Fair enough... we can slice this anyway you want.

I would say that Crean did hire an adequate assistant who specialized in player development, you say he didn't.

We can debate it all day long and research the internet from here to eternity, and it's not going to change your mind or my mind.

Again, I'm not exactly sure why there hasn't been a strong post presence at MU in a long time. I think it's probably a combination of factors (some of which Crean had control of, some of which he didn't).

The only reason I've posted in this thread is because it seems like people love to boil down complex situations to one simple point. "It was Crean's offense", "it was his lack of a big man coach", "it was because Crean hates big men", "it was because he didn't recruit in Wisconsin hard enough", etc. etc.

I can't believe it was/is that simple, guys.

I just can't. 

Agreed.

But to Crean, it was that simple: "It's Indiana...It's Indiana."

[Marquette84]

Agreed.

But to Crean, it was that simple: "It's Indiana...It's Indiana."

You can joke all you want, this was a THE factor for  Copabianco.  He wouldn't give Crean a verbal to come play for him at MU, but did so almost immedeatly after Crean annouced he was going to IU.

Same coach. 
Same offense. 
Different school. 

Different recruiting results.

[The Lens]

Maybe TC wasn't pushing that hard at MU...maybe TC saw IU coming...maybe Cappy (or as I like to call him Scott May and Kent Benson in a Blender) didn't want to commit during his HS season...but Joanie, keep thinking it was just the stripped pants, because Joanie, you're never wrong.

[Murffieus]

Murf, what do you see as the ceiling for Barro and Burke if they had been taught properly?   I think that both could have been significantly better, but Ooze was always going to be hampered by sub-par hands and Burke was always going to be hampered by his height.

I think Burke has overlifted as far as weights are concerned-----he's lost agility. He's made up for some of that agility loss by increased strength-----but agility is very important in BB and so his ceiling is lower than it otherwise would be.

Also I mentioned on these boards many times when Barro was a frosh/soph that he should have been on the hand squeezers to strengthen his fingers. Helped me a lot years ago.

Barro was basically slow----that is unless he was familiar with what he was doing (called conditioned reflexes)-----e.g. stepping out from behind the backboard to accept a dish off taking a step and dunking------he did that very quickly and effectively. That leads me to think that he had a lot of quality reps posting up he would have executed that a lot quicker as well.

[Blackhat]

Murfssius, in your expert trained internet tell all eye which one needs to lay off the weights and which one doesn't?




or

[Marquette84]

Maybe TC wasn't pushing that hard at MU...

Aha--we "cooled" on him!  THAT explains it! 

Did anyone ever tell you that you're sounding more like a rodent every day.

but Joanie, keep thinking it was just the stripped pants, because Joanie, you're never wrong.

LOL.  This is SO funny.  It brings me back to 2005! How DID you come up with that.  You really should be writing for some big-time comedy show.  Your talent is SO wasted on this board.

BTW, Piano Bob, shouldn't you get back for your 2nd afternoon set.  It's almost six and the old-timers are getting worried.

[Murffieus]

Murfssius, in your expert trained internet tell all eye which one needs to lay off the weights and which one doesn't?




or

To answer your question ALL of them should lay off the weights-----but the top picture has sculptured arm musceles in relation to the rest of their body (lithe bodies)-----Burke on the other hand looks like an NFL defensive tackle ----the top guys are going to have significant more body agility.

The difference in agility between an NFL WR and an NFL DT.

[MUSF]

To answer your question ALL of them should lay off the weights-----but the top picture has sculptured arm musceles in relation to the rest of their body (lithe bodies)-----Burke on the other hand looks like an NFL defensive tackle ----the top guys are going to have significant more body agility.

The difference in agility between an NFL WR and an NFL DT.

Ridiculous..

I don't even know where to begin.

Seriously, it must be fun to not be constrained by logic or proof.  If it pops into your head and makes sense to you, you just roll with it, reality be damned.

[The Lens]

Aha--we "cooled" on him!  THAT explains it! 

Did anyone ever tell you that you're sounding more like a rodent every day.



LOL.  This is SO funny.  It brings me back to 2005! How DID you come up with that.  You really should be writing for some big-time comedy show.  Your talent is SO wasted on this board.

BTW, Piano Bob, shouldn't you get back for your 2nd afternoon set.  It's almost six and the old-timers are getting worried.

Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.  Joanie, I'll be you some of that 27 mill that your boy TC eased up on his pressing for MU commits when old IU was opened. 

[Marquette84]

Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.. 

So let me get this straight. . .

Your theory is that with a recruit on the table and IU strongly courting Tony Bennett, Mark Few, and Sean Miller (and who knows who else), Crean is so confident that he's getting the job that he tells Capobianco NOT to make a non-binding verbal to him at MU because he MIGHT leave soon.

Do you ever engage your brain before you start to spew?

Because we all know that if Capobianco makes a VERBAL commitment to Crean at Marquette, he's absolutely LOCKED into MU and there is NO WAY he could ever change his decision if Crean were to leave. 

Meanwhile, since your brain doesn't think two seconds ahead, it may not have occurred to you that telling a recruit not to commit to MU because he's about to leave would put Crean in a pretty bad recruiting position if Tony Bennett (or Sean Miller or Mark Few, or anyone else who was on IU's list) had said "yes".

Because telling a recruit flat out that you're a short-timer at MU is a GREAT way to secure a commitment, wouldn't you say? 



I know that CDS is incurable and drives people to spew an inexhaustible amount of idiocy simply to avoid admitting a simple obvious point:  that some kids would rather attend Indiana than MU and are not concerned with Crean's offense for big men.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.  Joanie, I'll be you some of that 27 mill that your boy TC eased up on his pressing for MU commits when old IU was opened. 

Dude, are you serious with this, or are you just venting about Crean again?

You think Crean limited his interaction with the kid because he knew he'd get the IU job?

C'mon man. Even you can't believe this stuff.

And if applying common sense and rational thought makes me "Joanie" as well... then so be it. 

[The Lens]

Dude, are you serious with this, or are you just venting about Crean again?

You think Crean limited his interaction with the kid because he knew he'd get the IU job?

C'mon man. Even you can't believe this stuff.

And if applying common sense and rational thought makes me "Joanie" as well... then so be it. 

02, don't flatter yourself...you're only Riley.  SJS has a stranglehold on Joanie.

And yes I do think it's pausible that he didn't press Cappy for a commit.  I don't put much past the man.

Besides the other point (and perhaps more rationale point) is, how often does a guy commit during the season?  Considering TC joined IU before the Final Four, it's not that surprising that Cappy never committed to MU.  Why is everyone certain he wouldn't have committed to MU?  He never really got the chance, again based on the premise few players commit during the season.

[mu-rara]

Dude, are you serious with this, or are you just venting about Crean again?

You think Crean limited his interaction with the kid because he knew he'd get the IU job?

C'mon man. Even you can't believe this stuff.

And if applying common sense and rational thought makes me "Joanie" as well... then so be it. 

02,

you have as much credibility on the Crean discussion as those who never gave him credit for anything.  I have never seen more fawning over a sports personality than you over TC.  If you really want to leave it alone, than stop with the Crean love every time someone criticizes him.

I agree that the conspiracy theorists have gone gaga with this Copobianco stuff, but you have zero balance in any Crean discussion.  Your protection of all things Crean is overboard, also.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

02,

you have as much credibility on the Crean discussion as those who never gave him credit for anything.  I have never seen more fawning over a sports personality than you over TC.  If you really want to leave it alone, than stop with the Crean love every time someone criticizes him.

I agree that the conspiracy theorists have gone gaga with this Copobianco stuff, but you have zero balance in any Crean discussion.  Your protection of all things Crean is overboard, also.

Well, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this... so I will just go on record with this thought:

Tom Crean did not single handedly build MU, so he doesn't deserve all of the credit when things go right.

Tom Crean did not single handedly build MU, so he doesn't deserve all of the blame when things go wrong.

If people didn't try to pin every bad thing solely on Tom Crean, and diminish the good things he accomplished, I wouldn't be put in the position of "Tom Crean Defender".


No, I don't think Tom Crean is a saint.

And no, I don't give him credit for everything.

And yes, he talks in coach speak all of the time.

And yes, he has a bad haircut.

And yes, his departure from MU was suspect at best.

And yes, the lack of a big man hurt MU.

And yes, I wish MU wish MU had a better record in the tournament.

And yes, MU wasn't totally prepared for the KU game.

And yes, I wish Crean would use him timeouts.

And yes, DWade is a once in a lifetime player who really helped Crean.

And yes, Crean is a self-promoter. And yes, his IU presser was pretty lame.



I have my criticisms... trust me, it's just that there doesn't seem to be enough room on the "Tom Crean is a jerk" bandwagon for me.

[RJax55]

I remember reading an interview that was done in late May or early June with Bennie Seltzer ... In it, the interviewer asked Seltzer what he would have been doing at that time if he was still at MU. Seltzer said that unlike the situation at IU, MU would been done with 09 recruiting and he would have been working on other efforts.

That interview leads me to believe it was very likely that Capobianco would have verbal to MU if Crean was still here. Just because Capobianco didn't committ to MU by March, didn't mean that a future verbal was out of the question. As DKCL points out, player usually don't committ during the basketball season and coaches are focused on upcoming games (especially in Feb/March) rather than recruiting.

[Murffieus]

Ridiculous..

I don't even know where to begin.

Seriously, it must be fun to not be constrained by logic or proof.  If it pops into your head and makes sense to you, you just roll with it, reality be damned.

You're talking to someone who lifted weights back when BB players generally didn't touch them (1950s)----helped my rebounding quite a bit (one of only 3 MU BB players ever to average 14 rebs/game for a season), but hurt my agility.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not saying TC cooled on him at all, rather TC didn't want him to commit to MU when TC knew he may not be at MU for long.  Groundwork on these coaching searches is laid as soon as the previous coach is gone.  Joanie, I'll be you some of that 27 mill that your boy TC eased up on his pressing for MU commits when old IU was opened. 

Why would it matter....it's only a verbal and as we all know, you can get out of a verbal easily.  I have a heard time buying this one to be honest.  Crean could just take the guy along with him as he did with WRITTEN commitments...verbals are even easier.  Besides, what guarantee is there that Crean would have been given the job considering who else they were going after.

[Marquette84]

Besides the other point (and perhaps more rationale point) is, how often does a guy commit during the season?  Considering TC joined IU before the Final Four, it's not that surprising that Cappy never committed to MU.  Why is everyone certain he wouldn't have committed to MU?  He never really got the chance, again based on the premise few players commit during the season.

Capobianco's season ended 2/24. Capobianco had plenty of time to give his verbal MU even if he DID want to wait until after his season ended.

Oh, wait, we're supposed to believe that Crean wouldn't push for a non-binding verbal from a guy he wanted at MU and instead told him that he was leaving MU to take the Indiana job.  He made this statment MORE THAN A MONTH before IU actually offered the job to Tony Bennett.    

As I said, CDS causes one to say some pretty idiodic things.

Meanwhile, the truth remains:  Capobianco is an example of a big man Crean was recruiting to MU who was unconcerned with Crean's offensive style or big man development.  

[77ncaachamps]

Cappy = Amoroso

And 2002...you forgot to mention the tan.