Nick Williams to IU

[StillWarriors]

I think the sales analogy makes sense. If you think of it from the player's perspective it is understandable they would want to follow the coach who recruited you. We're kidding ourselves if we think they aren't making their decision largely based on the coach.

Imagine if you planned to pursue some graduate program where you'd take classes from and work with a particular professor whom you admired and wanted to have as your mentor. But then, before your program starts that professor leaves but offers you the chance to attend their program somewhere else-perhaps somewhere even more prestigious. You wouldn't go?
I acknowledge this may be an unusual scenario, but I know what I would do in those circumstances. Who wouldn't?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Hey chicos why do you feel the need to come on here and refute every posters claim against our scumbag former coach?  I mean seriously do you get some sort of satisfaction defending our former coach? 
Beyond why you feel the need, there is absolutely and let me state again absolutely no defending Crean.  I have been involved in the game a long time and what coaches such as O'Neil did at MU and most recently Trent Johnson did at Stanford is the high character way of doing it.  There are hundreds of recruiting fish in the sea.  A class individual publicly tells his incoming recruits and any other commits to stick with their commitment.  Now in all fairness to the kid that does not mean they will.  But to not do that and then to actually recruit the kids including calling Erik Williams the day he left and attempt to re-recruit him to Indiana is 100% completely indefensible.  The man is a scumbag, who not only left his players and employers with out the class to left them know before everyone else, but then had the University truck the players to him, then on top of it all chooses to go after his former schools commits.  Now dont get me wrong recruiting guys like Lacy and Wilson, I have absolutely no problem with.  Going after guys like Erik and Nick Williams tho is yet another indication of what most of us knew about our former coach 

I posted something thing similar in another thread... and I'll post it again as it seems applicable.


Crean did look out for his own interest (still is)... and Crean did handle the situation poorly.

But, I'm not sure you can make the jump to "he is a complete scumbag". That's a rather large leap.

If he left MU with a bunch of academic problems, wasn't graduating kids, left in the middle of the year, etc. etc. I think then you could make a better claim... but taking a different job and having it leaked early doesn't make him the villain that some people want him to be.

I'm sorry. It just doesn't.

Nick Williams also did what he thought was best, and is attending IU. Good for him.

Hate Crean if you want... but he didn't do anything that hundreds of coaches haven't done before. He accomplished a lot at MU, and the last month has been disappointing... but not enough to erase everything he did.

I really appreciate the passion of some of the fans here (that's encouraging), but I hope this whole ex-girlfriend syndrome that some of you have will go away over time.

[BrewCity83]

I'm still sore at Holmgren.  I doubt if this will pass any time soon, either.

I guess my problem is that he really did have me fooled.  I did not see it coming at all.  I knew he would leave at some point for a better job, which he has every right to do, but the way he bolted and completely turned his back on his players and everyone at MU just went against everything that he had been selling (and I had been buying) for the last 9 years.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm still sore at Holmgren.  I doubt if this will pass any time soon, either.

Fair enough. Guess I'm just not that way.

[Litehouse]

I keep hearing that this is done all the time.  Can anyone provide an example of a coach at this level (high-major) that switched schools and took a recruit with him?  Did recruits follow Howland to UCLA?  Self to KU?  Gillespie to UK?  Roy to UNC?  Huggins to WVU?  Matta to OSU?  Leitao to UVa?  any other examples?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I keep hearing that this is done all the time.  Can anyone provide an example of a coach at this level (high-major) that switched schools and took a recruit with him?  Did recruits follow Howland to UCLA?  Self to KU?  Gillespie to UK?  Roy to UNC?  Huggins to WVU?  Matta to OSU?  Leitao to UVa?  any other examples?

I don't know specifically... but let's be honest (going to use some generalizations here):

First, people were mad Crean was leaving.

Then people claimed that they weren't mad that Crean was leaving, but with the way he left (without telling the players first).

Now people are going to claim it's not the previous 2 things, but the fact that Nick Williams went to IU that makes them mad at Crean.

When does it stop? Are people going to keep trying to find ways to justify being upset?

I have no problem with Nick Williams going to play for Crean. IF/When Buzz gets an assistant from another program, the first thing we are all going to ask is "who has he been recruiting? and can we get that guy."

I'm afraid this is just the way things work.

I can't defend the way Crean left... I'm just not as pissed as some others. The guy did a lot for MU. I'm over it. Best of luck to him... but if/when MU ever plays IU, I hope MU crushes them  (for the record, I hope MU crushes everybody)

[dwaderoy2004]

Are people mad that Joseph Fulce followed Buzz here?  He was signed to play for UNO before Buzz left.

[mu-rara]

I'm beginning to think that 2002mualum is Joani or Riley

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm beginning to think that 2002mualum is Joani or Riley

I think Riley graduates in 2018.

I dunno guys, I don't mean to be a "Crean lover"... I'm just not as bitter as some others. I thought the guy did a hell of a job when he was here, and I can appreciate him for that.


Disappointed? Certainly. His leaving was abrupt and not well handled.

Bitter? Maybe a little. I did believe a lot of what he was selling and I wish he was still here.

Pissed? Not really. The guy did a lot for MU. Now he's gone. That's life. The program is better now than when he found it. I think he was apart of that. I can appreciate that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm beginning to think that 2002mualum is Joani or Riley

I'm beginning to think he's a rational person.  As the previous poster said, didn't Buzz bring a committed UNO player (Fulce) to MU?  Where's the uproar?

When Crean came to MU in 1999, he tried like crazy to get a few guys he was recruiting while at Michigan State, if we would have landed them people here would have been ecstatic.  If  remember correctly he was hard after Zach Randolph, Marcus Taylor, Torbet and others.  Yet some people here are upset that he's going after Jamil Wilson?  What's the difference?  Jamil is uncommitted.  Quite frankly, so was Nick Williams.  According to Nick Williams father, they reached out to IU and said he wanted to play up there.  The kid wants to play for Crean, not MU.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Maybe.  But maybe they don't want to be at MU now because Judas poisoned their minds about MU and trashed Buzz and the program after he slunk out of here.  These teenagers trust Judas, and are looking for guidance.  Don't think for a minute that he's not above doing that.

Better get used to it Brewcity.  If you were a Big East or Big Ten coach, don't you think you would be telling other recruits about Buzz's record, etc?   That will be something Buzz will have to overcome.  I think he can, but it will be used against him until he can put a winner on the court.

[MR.HAYWARD]

2002mualum....you are completely missing the point.  I was ambivalent when Crean left.  I never liked the guy and felt that apart from his first class and the 3 amigos class that his recruiting as poor. 2 classes in 9 years is not so hot.  This year he had 1 recruit signed in Williams and missed like normal on all his other targets and then Buzz got us some recruits.  Additionally i thought his coaching was mediocre at best.  But as a coach myself I realize 90% of winning is recruiting.  So no I was not bitter Crean left I actaully saw it as a possibility to take it too the next level.  And yes i feel Buzz can get that done.  My hopes on day 1 was fro Sean Miller to be the Next coach with Buzz as my #2 option ahead of Bennett by a long shot. 
Now I thought Crean left in a pethetic manner,  but then i never thought of him all that much and it being Crean surprised me little although I hoped for better at least for the kid's sake. 
What both you and chicos keep focusing on is the leaving.  So what about the leaving, what irks me to no end is calling commits and attempting to disuade them from their commitment!!  Give me a break!!  Many posters have asked you apologists to give examples of other coaches poaching their former schools commits.  I think everyone is still waiting for your examples.  Also, crean called Erik Williams the day he resigned, he is calling a committed player that is absolutely indefensible.  There is a n unwritten rule that you do not call a comitted player, Crean is doing that.  99% of fans across the country would say that is grossly crossing the line and would be furious if it happen to their school from an ex -coach.  yet the Mu Scoop board gets posts ad nauseum from you two defending the coach for his actions.  Why dont you two stuff it?   What he is doing is absolutely wrong in the college basketabll and if either of you two knew anyone in the business they would tell you it is dead wrong.  Crean is a self centered piece of s#!t, who needs players and hasnt the character, class, or loyalty to not steal from his past employer!!  No one wants to hear your bullcrap defense of the excoach.  Shove it!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No one wants to hear your bullcrap defense of the excoach.  Shove it!

Yikes.

Sorry to touch a nerve with you.

#1 As far as Crean's ability, I know a lot of people weren't thrilled with him, but I thought he did a very good job... maybe that's why I'm not so bitter. He did well. He is gone. So long. It was a good run. We obviously disagree on Crean's abilities, but that's fine.

#2 "What both you and chicos keep focusing on is the leaving.  So what about the leaving, what irks me to no end is calling commits and attempting to disuade them from their commitment!!  Give me a break!!"

Fair enough, however in previous posts, you have blasted Crean for several things about his leaving (see this thread:    http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8021.msg64894#msg64894)

Sooooo, which is it? Were you mad because he left? Or are you just getting mad now because N. Williams is going to IU? I suspect it's both, which is perfectly fine. But, let's not climb up onto some high ground and say "it's not because he left, its about the recruits". You didn't like Crean when he was here, you ripped him when he left, and now you're ripping him again. You're entitled to any opinion you want, but let's just be clear about how you have felt.

#3 As far as contacting other recruits, I know I've read it here on the boards, but I don't know if I have read it from a credible news or recruiting source (that information may exist, but I just don't recall).

Some of you guys certainly could be right... I'm just not sure. Again, TC has had a 9 year history of running a clean program. I'm not sure that leaving for another school and having a recruit come to IU is enough to convince me the guy is completely corrupt. I'm sorry (*shrug*), I'm just not sure it's the smoking gun you guys are looking for (at least to me).

#4 Again, I'm certainly disappointed with what has gone down. But, I'm just not sure that TC is the villain that some of you seem to want him to be. He's had a good track record at MU and accomplished a lot. The program is in better shape now than when he found it. I'm just having trouble hating the guy as much as you guys seem to.

I'm really not trying to piss anybody off...I'm just trying to remove as much emotion as possible and look objectively. Some may agree with me, so may still think I'm way off base... but I assure you I'm not trying to incite people here.

[ChicosBailBonds]

2002mualum....you are completely missing the point.  I was ambivalent when Crean left.  I never liked the guy and felt that apart from his first class and the 3 amigos class that his recruiting as poor. 2 classes in 9 years is not so hot.  This year he had 1 recruit signed in Williams and missed like normal on all his other targets and then Buzz got us some recruits.  Additionally i thought his coaching was mediocre at best.  But as a coach myself I realize 90% of winning is recruiting.  So no I was not bitter Crean left I actaully saw it as a possibility to take it too the next level.  And yes i feel Buzz can get that done.  My hopes on day 1 was fro Sean Miller to be the Next coach with Buzz as my #2 option ahead of Bennett by a long shot. 
Now I thought Crean left in a pethetic manner,  but then i never thought of him all that much and it being Crean surprised me little although I hoped for better at least for the kid's sake. 
What both you and chicos keep focusing on is the leaving.  So what about the leaving, what irks me to no end is calling commits and attempting to disuade them from their commitment!!  Give me a break!!  Many posters have asked you apologists to give examples of other coaches poaching their former schools commits.  I think everyone is still waiting for your examples.  Also, crean called Erik Williams the day he resigned, he is calling a committed player that is absolutely indefensible.  There is a n unwritten rule that you do not call a comitted player, Crean is doing that.  99% of fans across the country would say that is grossly crossing the line and would be furious if it happen to their school from an ex -coach.  yet the Mu Scoop board gets posts ad nauseum from you two defending the coach for his actions.  Why dont you two stuff it?   What he is doing is absolutely wrong in the college basketabll and if either of you two knew anyone in the business they would tell you it is dead wrong.  Crean is a self centered piece of s#!t, who needs players and hasnt the character, class, or loyalty to not steal from his past employer!!  No one wants to hear your bullcrap defense of the excoach.  Shove it!

What evidence do you have that he disuaded anyone from a commitment?  Williams wanted out about 4 nanoseconds after Crean left.  No phone call was necessary.  In fact his father indicated that they contacted IU, not the other way around.  Sounds to me like the player disuaded himself.

Did he call Fulce and Otule?  I've seen no evidence of that.  Did he call Erik Williams...probably did, is Erik Williams a committed player?  Verbally yes, but that's as good as the paper it's written on.  That stuff happens all the time and happened with Nick Williams verbal to MU by SEC schools up until the very end when he signed.  Welcome to reality.

Did he call Jamil Wilson....yes, he sure as hell did.  Guess what, Jamil Wilson isn't committed.  He's fair game.

Did you ever think it's the players that want to play for that coach?  I'm not defending Crean at all, I'm just going with reality.  There is an ignore button, you don't like what I post...USE THE IGNORE BUTTON.

Simple question for you....do you want players to be here because they want to be here or because they were forced to be here due to NCAA rules on LOIs?   

Look, Crean is gone....good riddance.  9 fun years, plenty of great memories and a few low ones, but he's gone.  The fact that you ignore the reality of what is happening because you're bitter at him leaving is your problem.  I'm just calling it the way it is.  No one likes it, including me, but the feigned shock and outrage is a bit much, especially when you darn well know if we had signed Sean Miller or Tony Bennett and he brought recruits with him or signed recruits the following year that he was recruiting ("on their dime" while at the previous school) no one would blink an eye at all.  We would welcome them with open arms.

It's hypocritical to say the least.  Better get used to it, because Crean was recruiting kids all the way down to freshman year of high school so there are multiple classes ahead that he's going to touch that he touched previously at MU.  That's the way it goes in the REALITY of DI athletics.

[Marquette84]

My hopes on day 1 was fro Sean Miller to be the Next coach with Buzz as my #2 option ahead of Bennett by a long shot. 

You are aware that Miller recruited Terrell Holloway.  Doesn't that show a lack of class?  Shouldn't Miller have said "you belong at Indiana?"

I suppose you'll try and make a big deal about the fact that Miller was not Holloway's first choice.

Holloway signed with Indiana and was every bit as committed there as Nick Willams was to MU.  If the right thing to do is to tell the player that he belongs where he committed, does it make much difference whether you won the recruiting battle or came in 2nd place?

Nobody here said that Ben-Eze belongs at Harvard or Holloway belongs at Indiana--the popular sentiment here is that it would be great news for us to land those players who decommitted from another program.  I seriously doubt there would have been much consternation (if any) if Miller came and brought his 6'11 4-star recruit with him.  

[Litehouse]

Are people mad that Joseph Fulce followed Buzz here?  He was signed to play for UNO before Buzz left.

Fulce also didn't come here directly.  He sat out of D-I basketball for a year and burned a year of eligibility, which NW won't have to do.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU could have put limitations on the release, they didn't.  If MU didn't, then why is anyone getting upset?  By not putting conditions on the release, you're inviting this very thing to happen. 

[ecompt]

Is this a PR move on the school's part? I would have thought Wild was so ticked off with the way Judas left that he would have told Cottingham, "Under no circumstances is he taking recruits with him."

[MR.HAYWARD]

MU did not put restrictions on the release because Mu is a high character institution and would never do that to a young man.  Good Grief!!

[MR.HAYWARD]

ahhhhhh...not sure about my post from the day of the press conference having anything to do with me being mad at him leaving??  I simply pointed out that he is a liar, a fake and completely insincere.  Where in that post did i say I was upset he was leaving??  I simply predicted what he would say and was dead on.  i know him for what he is.   Some newbies thought Crean was bigger than the school, they will soon find they were dead wrong and Crean was no where near what he sold himself as.  Great PR guy not so great recruiter and an even worse coach and person. 

[Litehouse]

Honestly, my biggest problem with Crean poaching our recruits is that it's a loophole for him to get around the self-imposed sanctions and recruiting restrictions at Indiana.  The sanctions were put in place to show Indiana was punishing itself for the violations and placing themselves at a disadvantage.  With Crean using MU's recruiting budget, visits, contacts, etc. to bring in IU's recruiting class, these sanctions have no consequences for IU.

[HarveysWallbangers]

You are aware that Miller recruited Terrell Holloway.  Doesn't that show a lack of class?  Shouldn't Miller have said "you belong at Indiana?"

I suppose you'll try and make a big deal about the fact that Miller was not Holloway's first choice.

Holloway signed with Indiana and was every bit as committed there as Nick Willams was to MU.  If the right thing to do is to tell the player that he belongs where he committed, does it make much difference whether you won the recruiting battle or came in 2nd place?

Nobody here said that Ben-Eze belongs at Harvard or Holloway belongs at Indiana--the popular sentiment here is that it would be great news for us to land those players who decommitted from another program.  I seriously doubt there would have been much consternation (if any) if Miller came and brought his 6'11 4-star recruit with him.  

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the coach that recruited Holloway to Indiana fired for recruiting violations?

[augoman]

I never was happy w/ crean's self-promotion and over-pay while he was here, but liked his relationship to players, students, previous players, fans and the MU community.  When he didn't show at the M club golf outing last spring I was curious.  When he acquiesed to Mbakwe at the end of season I was puzzled.  When he bolted in the night to Indiana I was NOT surprised at the move;  I was surprised at Indiana.  My only dissappointment in crean is that he never earned the winner's salary he demanded all those years.  

Those of you w/ anger at crean are the ones that swallowed the bilge he was spewing.  Some of us saw him as the slick salesman he is.  His actions are true to his persona.

He, and all other coaches, have every right to go after uncommitted recruits (Wilson, etc.), but ethical coaches will not harrass committed recruits (Erik Williams).

[mr.MUskie]

Honestly, my biggest problem with Crean poaching our recruits is that it's a loophole for him to get around the self-imposed sanctions and recruiting restrictions at Indiana.  The sanctions were put in place to show Indiana was punishing itself for the violations and placing themselves at a disadvantage.  With Crean using MU's recruiting budget, visits, contacts, etc. to bring in IU's recruiting class, these sanctions have no consequences for IU.


+1

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU did not put restrictions on the release because Mu is a high character institution and would never do that to a young man.  Good Grief!!

Then if you make that argument, you have to also understand that if the young man wants to play for a certain coach then why not let him.  You can't have it both ways.  The kid wants to play for Crean, not MU.  Good Grief!!

And once they are out of their LOI, which we let them out of, they are free game...no ties to any school.