WWE @ MSG

[rocky_warrior]

Remember, you can't critique any MU players on this board or you'll get crucified.

Does that mean you're resurrected? 

[mileskishnish72]

Shaka has his work cut out for him

Truer words were never spoken.

[MuggsyB]

Again, I said resetting HOPES, not expectations.

The team that beat Maryland, Wisconsin, and Purdue while several conference teams struggled in the OOC raised hopes. But several of the Conference teams have improved over the course of the season while MU has not. Based on the conference games it's hard to make an argument that MU is better than Xavier.

But harder to make the argument that Xavier will be seeded ahead of MU in the NCAA tournament.  If in fact they make the tournament. 

[Newsdreams]

So many funny takes here, thanks!!

[Newsdreams]

You really think the defense and rebounding is better at the 5 spot this year.I can't help you if that is what you think. Gold has been abused against UCONN and St. John's. They are the two best teams in the league. Not playing Seton Hall and DePaul the last two games. Should have taken a Senior transfer at the 5 while the young big guys develop

MU had 8 blocks tonight. MU just shot terrible 2nd half, got into foul trouble, and barely won the TO battle.

[Shooter McGavin]

We disagree.  OK, whatever.

Tower you are seeing something that no one else is seeing in Tre. Hoe you are right.

Overall, my impressions are

1) David, the enigma, Joplin sabotaged the first half and some of the second half.  Love the effort on D.  Love that he loves MU.  But wow is he maddening.  He will be a major reason for losing first round or going a long way in the tournament.  Would much rather have a player with consistently higher basketball IQ but David is here for better or worse.  Tonight definitely worse.

2) Many calls were terrible.  Especially the flagrant foul. 

3) Kam needs to pay like an all-American.  If he does not the teams ceiling is much lower.

4) St Johns is not a better team than MU.  Hopefully they can get over this slump and play for a Big East Title in March.

[tower912]

Just a bad night to watch basketball. IU was never in the game in Madison.  Continuing to misuse their aircraft carrier and miss from mid range. MSU laid their second straight egg on the west coast, shooting poorly and letting UCLA's very tall center intimidate them around the rim.  The Bruin's all but eliminated the Sparty transition.   Ah, well.  Purdue and Wisconsin continue to ascend the Big 10 standings.

[tower912]

Royce has a high ceiling. Wouldn't mind seeing his minutes increase. We don't get any rebounds anyway so no harm in going smaller and I think he'd be just fine on D now.

Royce does have a high ceiling.  His rebounding last night was not an upgrade.

[CTWarrior]

As the game went on, Marquette did foul under their basket too often...

This is a common theme with this team.  We get beat of the dribble for layups regularly the last 5-10 minutes of games.  Tough for us to keep penetrators in front of us as our legs tire.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

All three seniors played poorly.

If the game plan is to shoot threes, then recruit guys who can make threes.

Kam only partially redeemed himself keeping MU in the game the last 5 minutes, and Stevie was highly uncharacteristically non impactful, but by far the biggest disappointment was the incredible variety of ways Jop found to make mental errors. From repeatedly falling asleep on cutters, to refusing an open 6 foot shot in the lane, to telegraphing passes straight into defenders' hands, to his panicked 3-point heave with a full 4 seconds left on the shot clock...he is too experienced and frankly too talented to play that way. EDIT: Forgot about the standing near mid-court completely unguarded and having a pass go straight through his hands and out of bounds.

Given the way the bench has played (and wow, Parham has really improved), even a collectively mediocre performance from the seniors would have resulted in a comfortable win.

[MuggsyB]

The tempo we like to play at tends to favor St.John's.  When we got beat it was mostly in the open floor coast to coast.  There were several sequences when we missed a quick 3 and they got a lay-up on the other end.  This also happened when we missed a contested lay-up.  Our rebounding issues weren't just Benny and Jop.  St.J got a ton of long rebounds and all the loose balls. 

[Aircraftcarrier]

MU had 8 blocks tonight. MU just shot terrible 2nd half, got into foul trouble, and barely won the TO battle.

you really don't know basketball. Who cares how many blocks MU had. St.John's was 3-16 from three and 17-31 from the line and won the game.Do you have any idea why they won? I will help you. MU got abused on the glass.

[The Sultan]

Kam only partially redeemed himself keeping MU in the game the last 5 minutes, and Stevie was highly uncharacteristically non impactful, but by far the biggest disappointment was the incredible variety of ways Jop found to make mental errors. From repeatedly falling asleep on cutters, to refusing an open 6 foot shot in the lane, to telegraphing passes straight into defenders' hands, to his panicked 3-point heave with a full 4 seconds left on the shot clock...he is too experienced and frankly too talented to play that way.

Given the way the bench has played (and wow, Parham has really improved), even a collectively mediocre performance from the seniors would have resulted in a comfortable win.

I am largely in the "Joplin is who he is" camp, but that performance last night was just awful. For all the strides he made defensively, he looked completely lost. Then he had just some inexplicable turnovers that an experienced senior should not be making.

It really is too bad that Owens hasn't made the strides that we hoped for because if there was any time that we just needed a competant back up there, that was it.

OTOH, Parham is really playing well. And Zaide had a good stretch as well.

But man...as was said elsewhere, if you are going to be "team development," you expect seniors to step up and perform in these situations. And they largely did not do that.

[mileskishnish72]

you really don't know basketball. Who cares how many blocks MU had. St.John's was 3-16 from three and 17-31 from the line and won the game.Do you have any idea why they won? I will help you. MU got abused on the glass.

And it's a good thing Shaka won't play people who won't play D, because we get to play D a lot with all the offensive rebounds we allow.

[MuggsyB]

I am largely in the "Joplin is who he is" camp, but that performance last night was just awful. For all the strides he made defensively, he looked completely lost. Then he had just some inexplicable turnovers that an experienced senior should not be making.

It really is too bad that Owens hasn't made the strides that we hoped for because if there was any time that we just needed a competant back up there, that was it.

OTOH, Parham is really playing well. And Zaide had a good stretch as well.

But man...as was said elsewhere, if you are going to be "team development," you expect seniors to step up and perform in these situations. And they largely did not do that.

Fair.  It's one thing for Jop to be an inconsistent shooter, but another when he has games like he did yesterday.

[Big Papi]

Lots of reasons why we lost last night but the 2 biggest are:

1. Abused on the defensive glass
2. Kam had another sub-par game

St. John's is not bigger than us.  Richmond and Luis Jr had 11 rebounds each.  Meanwhile Stevie who usually grabs a decent amount didn't have a single rebound.  Neither did Gold.  Joplin had 2.  That can't happen.  St. John's swarms the offensive glass.  That is not something out of left field.  How do you not prepare for something like that.  Fundamentals.  Pride.  Come on.  That was the biggest disappointment of the year.

The book is out on Kam and how to defend him.  His play last night is a continuation of his sub-par play going on multiple weeks.  For a player that looked like he was going to be a possible first team All-American, he is getting outplayed by the opposition's best players.  Ball and Richmond were just better than him.  He needs to figure it out if we are to win these types of games.  Maybe playing him off the ball more might do the trick but there was a stretch there where I wanted him and Jop just to ride the bench the whole game because they weren't helping.  Just silly mistakes, bad decision making and awful fouls.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

It really is too bad that Owens hasn't made the strides that we hoped for because if there was any time that we just needed a competant back up there, that was it.

OTOH, Parham is really playing well. And Zaide had a good stretch as well.

I've always been a big believer in Zaide; I said last year, when his offense catches up to his defense, look out. I think we are there, or close to getting there.

Parham and Owens-- I thought their relative impact would be flipped. So well done Royce, Damarius your table is ready.

[tower912]

I think that Owens entire season has been impacted by being out most of September and October with a groin injury and then a foot injury.   Too much preseason work missed.  Never caught up.

[CountryRoads]

Is the staff pushing too far trying to develop our guy's weaknesses instead of just building around their strengths?

Chase is in more or less the same role as last year and is thriving. That's why I don't like the PG talk for him. Just let him do what he already does well. Stevie in the same role as well and has been good.

Jop was challenged hard defensively and has become serviceable at the cost of his 3pt% plummeting.

Kam obviously is in a completely different role this year. He's improved in certain parts of his game but at the expense of losing the few skills that made him elite. He's also lost a lot of his swag. Also, we gambled and lost on Sean coming back this year. Inexcusable to not have a true point guard on this roster.

Ben has improved a lot defensively but he just doesn't have enough help at his position. We have three 6'8+ projects stashed on our bench that need to be ready for next year or upgrades need to be brought in.

I don't know, I think our confidence is shaken due to all the new roles and responsibilities these guys are trying to manage. Shaka always tells Kam he is going to be evaluated on 4 things and 1 isn't scoring, etc. That's just too much to put in his head.

[The Sultan]

Is the staff pushing too far trying to develop our guy's weaknesses instead of just building around their strengths?

Chase is in more or less the same role as last year and is thriving. That's why I don't like the PG talk for him. Just let him do what he already does well. Stevie in the same role as well and has been good.

Jop was challenged hard defensively and has become serviceable at the cost of his 3pt% plummeting.

Kam obviously is in a completely different role this year. He's improved in certain parts of his game but at the expense of losing the few skills that made him elite. He's also lost a lot of his swag. Also, we gambled and lost on Sean coming back this year. Inexcusable to not have a true point guard on this roster.

Ben has improved a lot defensively but he just doesn't have enough help at his position. We have three 6'8+ projects stashed on our bench that need to be ready for next year or upgrades need to be brought in.

I don't know, I think our confidence is shaken due to all the new roles and responsibilities these guys are trying to manage. Shaka always tells Kam he is going to be evaluated on 4 things and 1 isn't scoring, etc. That's just too much to put in his head.

I agree about Chase. I don't think Kam was going to be PG either, but the injury to Sean pretty much forced it. Hopefully he can come back so Chase isn't forced to play too much point.

[DoctorV]

Lots of reasons why we lost last night but the 2 biggest are:

1. Abused on the defensive glass
2. Kam had another sub-par game

St. John's is not bigger than us.  Richmond and Luis Jr had 11 rebounds each.  Meanwhile Stevie who usually grabs a decent amount didn't have a single rebound.  Neither did Gold.  Joplin had 2.  That can't happen.  St. John's swarms the offensive glass.  That is not something out of left field.  How do you not prepare for something like that.  Fundamentals.  Pride.  Come on.  That was the biggest disappointment of the year.

The book is out on Kam and how to defend him.  His play last night is a continuation of his sub-par play going on multiple weeks.  For a player that looked like he was going to be a possible first team All-American, he is getting outplayed by the opposition's best players.  Ball and Richmond were just better than him.  He needs to figure it out if we are to win these types of games.  Maybe playing him off the ball more might do the trick but there was a stretch there where I wanted him and Jop just to ride the bench the whole game because they weren't helping.  Just silly mistakes, bad decision making and awful fouls.

This is a good post.
To #2 I would add uncharacteristically subpar play from Joplin on both ends and Stevie on offense. It's one thing for Kam or Jop or Stevie to be off, it's another for all 3 seniors to be poor at the same time...

As for the offensive glass abuse, that's the worst part for me. You won't win the battle, but coming into a game where you know that's a huge focus, or should know, it's very very bad to give up that many offensive rebounds. Forget the getting your own O rebounds part, but you've got to put an emphasis on not allowing StJ to get that many offensive rebounds- esp when you know that they are a poor shooting team and there will be a ton of O rebound attempts for them.
That just shows lack of prep, scheme, or effort and all 3 of those are no bueno.

As you said, it's not like they are massive and they only play 6 guys so Marquette should be able to throw fresh legs out there with size to be able to mitigate, and it never happened.

As for Kam two things really stand out to me on the negative side
1- he just seems like he's trying so damn hard and nothing is breaking for him. His first step seems unusually slow to me and it seems hard for him to get by his defender. Not sure if that's better competition or something else, but it's noticeable.
2- his handle and comfort on the ball seem off. Dribbling way too high and loose and just doesn't look dialed in for some reason

Those two things on top of the broken shot spell for disaster.

Not sure what the answer is outside of taking him off the ball for a bit, letting him come off screens to try to get his outside shot back. Maybe that then makes him more comfortable in all other aspects like he was earlier in the season.
Another option is to get much more creative in better and multiple screens to get him a better opening and more clear path to the basket.

We will see what Shaka draws up

[MU82]

Each of Kam's last 3 fouls was more foolish than the one before. We can argue all day about whether he deserved a flagrant on the 4th, but just the fact that he swiped at the ball like that when he already had 3 fouls was so foolish that I couldn't believe it.

I've generally been a Jop defender, but he was beyond awful last night.

And that's a tough kind of team for Stevie to go against offensively - he's basically a bully-ball inside player, and St. John's is a tough team to bully.

So those were our three seniors, three leaders, and they were a net negative. Given that, it's pretty surprising that we even had a chance to win.

After Ross made two FTs to pull us to 60-59 with 3:21 left, here were our next three offensive possessions:

++ Gold missed the front end of a 1-and-1
++ Joplin missed an open 3-pointer
++ Ross missed an open 3-pointer

As we fell further behind, our defense became more scrambly, and we fouled or gave up dunks.

Make the two FTs and one of the 3s, and we're in the game to the end, maybe even pull it out. So even when we play as poorly as we did for long stretches last night, it still wasn't a hopeless situation.

I agree with Shaka that St. John's simply was the better, more aggressive team and deserved to win. They have to come to Fiserv in a month, so we'll see what happens.

We're all frustrated now because we want to win, and our team definitely isn't playing good basketball for long stretches, but I still don't think the season is hopeless or lost.

[withoutbias]

Should've rebounded better, but it's hard when the entire SJU philosophy is "chuck an ugly shot up at the rim, and then all 5 players just sprint into the backs of the opposing team and grab the ball off the floor."  A ton of their offensive rebounds weren't going high to grab them over our rebounders.  They were all chucking guys around, the ball hitting the floor, and them being on balance to grab the ball in a scrum.

[MUfan12]

We're all frustrated now because we want to win, and our team definitely isn't playing good basketball for long stretches, but I still don't think the season is hopeless or lost.

The numbers since 12/14...

38 in T-Rank
64 in OE
33 in DE

It gets uglier under the hood.

233 in eFG%
189 in eFGD%
311 in DREB rate
314 in FT rate
278 in 2PT Defense
257 in 3PT shooting

Our season is being propped up by the non-conference performance and turnover margin. This team is going on two months of playing largely like crap. I hope like hell they can shake out of it. I don't expect them to be great in each area, but not awful would be a good place to start.

[Johnny B]

I think that Owens entire season has been impacted by being out most of September and October with a groin injury and then a foot injury.   Too much preseason work missed.  Never caught up.

You said this for ben as well. DO was a highly touted recruited. Why some 4-6 week minor injury from 5 months ago means we shouldnt expect anything from him for the whole year makes no sense to me.