The power (electricity) thread!

[rocky_warrior]

Energy is really hard to store long term but it's getting much better. There's been some pretty interesting work going on involving advanced storage with hybrid wind/solar farms (peak energy demand often coincides with high generation of one or the other but not both).

Where you run into big problems with the equipment is aggressive production curtailment when demand is lower, so they're trying to figure out how to best minimize that through siphoning off the power into storage. Electricity degrades pretty quickly, but if they can come up with some solutions there they can manage the grid demand and production way better. Would be a game changer for managing rural grids.

There's so much open wasteland in Texas a lot of people pretty much realized they may as well generate power on it from free natural resources. Staffing these facilities is the real challenge but not relevant here.

Figured I'd go ahead and start a new thread.

Curious about your take on Iron Air batteries.  Apparently some coming to MN and CO.  Obviously not space/size efficient, but as you stated, plenty of land to work with.
https://www.energy-storage.news/xcel-energy-1gwh-minnesota-project-with-form-energys-iron-air-batteries-approved/
https://coloradosun.com/2023/01/27/xcel-energy-renewable-battery-storage-pueblo-comanche-form-energy/

I'm watching the progress on gravity batteries.  We'll see, I feel like pumped hydro is a better solution here.
https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/two-massive-gravity-batteries-are-nearing-completion-in-the-us-and-china

[jesmu84]

Figured I'd go ahead and start a new thread.

Curious about your take on Iron Air batteries.  Apparently some coming to MN and CO.  Obviously not space/size efficient, but as you stated, plenty of land to work with.
https://www.energy-storage.news/xcel-energy-1gwh-minnesota-project-with-form-energys-iron-air-batteries-approved/
https://coloradosun.com/2023/01/27/xcel-energy-renewable-battery-storage-pueblo-comanche-form-energy/

I'm watching the progress on gravity batteries.  We'll see, I feel like pumped hydro is a better solution here.
https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/two-massive-gravity-batteries-are-nearing-completion-in-the-us-and-china

Can you go through your process of solar + powerwall purchase/install? Or send PM?

Particularly interested in your solar

[rocky_warrior]

I buried it in the EV thread earlier, but let me know if you have other Qs...

I really should start a "solar" thread I guess, but my recent story as it relates to home backup batteries (and vaguely vehicle batteries).

Last summer I got a quote for solar on my roof, and really wanted a backup battery included.  Talked to a couple installers and they both said it made no financial sense to install a battery - basically you end up paying so much per kWh that you might as well go and buy an EV and get a much better value.  For a completely unrelated reason, I decided not to install last year.

About a month ago, I got an email from one of the companies about a deal on solar panels so I started the discussion again.  I didn't even ask about a battery, figuring it was still not a good option.  The quote I got back was for a few thousand less than last year (after all rebates and credits).  But he threw in another quote including the (new) Powerwall 3.  It was only $700 more than solar alone!  Also still less than last years quote.  Done deal.

What changed?  Well, a lot I guess.  But Colorado added a state tax credit for batteries that shaved a couple thousand off the price, and the Utility (Xcel) is paying for 50% of it to use a a grid backup solution (more on that shortly).  Additionally, the PW3 now has a DC/AC inverter (11.5kW) included at about the same cost as the PW1/2, which means that the installers don't need to purchase some other inverter for the solar installation. 

So back to the battery grid backup - Xcel pays for half of my battery, and I sign a contract that says Xcel can use up to 60% of my battery capacity to feed the grid during up to 60 days of the year when they expect bad weather / high peak demand.  40% is always reserved for my use (and 100% on the other 305 days per year).

Right.  My all in price (installed, permitted, connected) is almost exactly $20k after 30% fed tax credit (all might not have enough liabilities to be eligible), ~$5.5k from xcel, and ~$1.2k CO tax credit (for battery).  A good friend had a natural gas whole home Gererac installed for ~$11k.   Of course, I don't have natural gas service.  I could have a propane tank installed, but...more expense....so solar with a PW made more sense.  Especially since it'll likely pay itself off in 8 years (with $0 electric bills).  A Generac never really "pays itself off" - but is convenient.

Maybe it's all marketing, but the solar installer also claims the system / panels will basically immediately add $20k value to the house.  I'm not counting on it, but I'd believe it adds value.

The PW3 will do continuous 11.5kW, though the battery is "only" 13.5kWh so only a little over an hour if your using the whole capacity - and maybe not enough if you want to run the hot tub, dryer, oven, and water heater at the same time..  However, if I know I'm on battery, I can probably stretch it out to...well forever assuming it mostly charges the next day (only should take a little over 1hr of sun in my system).

Regarding my last sentence, the PW3 only charges the batteries at ~5kW, so it'll really take closer to 3 to charge.  The excess my house can use (or will be exported to the grid). 

edit:  Guess I never stated that it's a 9.6kW solar array, using 24 REC 400W panels (N-Peak3).  They're not the newest technology, but that's partly why I got a "deal".

[Pakuni]

This is timely.

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5120581/three-mile-island-nuclear-power-plant-microsoft-ai

[Shaka Shart]

Figured I'd go ahead and start a new thread.

Curious about your take on Iron Air batteries.  Apparently some coming to MN and CO.  Obviously not space/size efficient, but as you stated, plenty of land to work with.
https://www.energy-storage.news/xcel-energy-1gwh-minnesota-project-with-form-energys-iron-air-batteries-approved/
https://coloradosun.com/2023/01/27/xcel-energy-renewable-battery-storage-pueblo-comanche-form-energy/

I'm watching the progress on gravity batteries.  We'll see, I feel like pumped hydro is a better solution here.
https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/two-massive-gravity-batteries-are-nearing-completion-in-the-us-and-china

I don't know enough about iron or gravity batteries to offer an opinion on their efficacy in all honesty, only that these novel diverse experiments are good indicators of staying power of the battery concept itself.

I've actually been to that site in Pueblo you posted though! Got my green chile and covid from that work trip. For a place like Pueblo I'm assuming the pumped hydro isn't as viable an option given the region's worsening water constraints.

[rocky_warrior]

I don't know enough about iron or gravity batteries to offer an opinion on their efficacy in all honesty, only that these novel diverse experiments are good indicators of staying power of the battery concept itself.

I've actually been to that site in Pueblo you posted though! Got my green chile and covid from that work trip. For a place like Pueblo I'm assuming the pumped hydro isn't as viable an option given the region's worsening water constraints.

Fair... Iron Air is the target at Pueblo, and it seems like a great solution.  We'll see

Sorry about the COVID, glad you got some green chili!

[Strokin 3s]

This is timely.

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5120581/three-mile-island-nuclear-power-plant-microsoft-ai

Was certainly good for CEG's stock price 

[rocky_warrior]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/america-s-biggest-renewable-project-is-nearly-finished-the-remaining-challenges-and-lessons-learned/ar-AA1rvlYZ

"Permitting reform is essential to us accelerating the energy transition," said Kristina Lund, the president of Pattern Energy, a private company based in San Francisco, in an interview. "Sun Zia was being permitted for 17 years. What that means is that there were four different presidential administrations, 11 different heads of the Bureau of Land Management. It's highly costly. It's really difficult to make sure that the prioritization stays constant."

[Shaka Shart]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/america-s-biggest-renewable-project-is-nearly-finished-the-remaining-challenges-and-lessons-learned/ar-AA1rvlYZ

I'm involved with this project! (For the love of god permitting reform now please)

[JWags85]

AWAY, the luggage brand, has the best  external batteries on the market (that aren't enormous or heavy for multiple devices at once).  This is just a fact.

That's the only firm and researched opinion on batteries I have at this time.

[rocky_warrior]

AWAY, the luggage brand, has the best  external batteries on the market (that aren't enormous or heavy for multiple devices at once).  This is just a fact.

That's the only firm and researched opinion on batteries I have at this time.

How many suitcases to power a house? 

[rocky_warrior]

I'm involved with this project! (For the love of god permitting reform now please)

Much smaller scale - but my roof solar project is complete, passed county inspection...and everything is sitting idle waiting for xcel to give permission to operate (interconnection agreement has already been signed...).  Sigh.  Nobody knows exactly when that will happen.

[rocky_warrior]

Ireland now planning an Iron Air battery system.  Again using Form Energy batteries...

https://renews.biz/95979/futurenergy-files-battery-planning-application/

[tower912]

Google 'chinese solar farm'.   That, in conjunction with their commitment to EV's, means that China might actually reduce their emissions to the point that it is noticeable globally.

[Shaka Shart]

Whoa!

https://www.chron.com/news/article/texas-ercot-power-grid-energy-19814295.php

[rocky_warrior]

Whoa!

https://www.chron.com/news/article/texas-ercot-power-grid-energy-19814295.php

That would be cool... And beneficial.  I won't dox you, but your pattern of posting makes me think I know who you work for, lol

[Shaka Shart]

That would be cool... And beneficial.  I won't dox you, but your pattern of posting makes me think I know who you work for, lol

[rocky_warrior]

Well, the $$$ is there.  We'll see if they can start delivering on these projects

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/long-duration-energy-storage/form-energy-raises-405m-for-its-100-hour-iron-air-batteries

[rocky_warrior]

Another competitor in the long duration battery, Noon Energy..

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/long-duration-energy-storage/noon-energy-raises-28m-for-a-whole-new-kind-of-long-duration-storage

t starts with a tank of carbon dioxide. Noon's battery stores energy by using electricity to split the CO2 into solid carbon and oxygen gas; to discharge, it reverses the operation, oxidizing the powdery solid carbon. The active ingredients are so cheap that Noon pays more for the tanks to store them in, Graves said.

Also...

Graves says his carbon-based storage is in fact three times as energy-dense as lithium-ion.

Impressive, if true.  But not much news out of them in 2024.  Looks like a contract for a 10MWh trial in California and that's about it.

[rocky_warrior]

Maybe it's just hitting my news feed because I'm an electric junkie, but are people still not familiar with heat pumps?

Over 4 years ago I replaced an electric water heater with a heat pump version, and my electric bill dropped nearly in half.

Two years ago I put a Fujitsu cold climate heat pump (still heats to -17 F) in my current house which only uses electric baseboards or wood burning fireplaces for heating, and now I generally keep the house 8 degrees warmer for 17% less.

If you're not on the heat pump wagon, get on it!

[Scoop Snoop]

Maybe it's just hitting my news feed because I'm an electric junkie, but are people still not familiar with heat pumps?

Over 4 years ago I replaced an electric water heater with a heat pump version, and my electric bill dropped nearly in half.

Two years ago I put a Fujitsu cold climate heat pump (still heats to -17 F) in my current house which only uses electric baseboards or wood burning fireplaces for heating, and now I generally keep the house 8 degrees warmer for 17% less.

If you're not on the heat pump wagon, get on it!

Agree with your heat pump comments completely. I'm surprised that you wrote "wood burning fireplaces" though. I thought you would have at least one set up with a wood stove venting up the flue in case of a long power outage. Electric baseboard? Yeah, I easily get why you would not want to rely on those energy hogs. We have a couple for our walk-out basement, but only as supplemental heat to help out our heat pump because of the chilling factor of being partially in-ground. I have to admit that when our heat is on gas back-up mode, it sure feels nice.

We have generator that is now too old to repair (parts unavailable), so it is kaput. Over the years, our electric company has been able to get the power back up much quicker than they did in the past, so the generator will not be replaced. Now they have electronic sensors alerting them to exactly where the downed lines are, even if they are deep in a forested area. Trees are trimmed via a helicopter in forested areas. A huge, scary-looking chain saw dangles below the chopper and is operated by remote control. 

[rocky_warrior]

I'm surprised that you wrote "wood burning fireplaces" though. I thought you would have at least one set up with a wood stove venting up the flue in case of a long power outage.

Technically, now two (I have 3!) of them are modern wood stoves.  I guess they were all wood stoves, but 50 years old from the Montgomery Ward catalog!  I think at least 2 of them were intended to use coal.  A blast from the past!

The 3rd is a historic "award winning" home comfort in the kitchen.  It works, but I don't fire it up unless I lose power and it's really cold.  Looks like this:



But now I've got solar and powerwall for those electric outages.

A huge, scary-looking chain saw dangles below the chopper and is operated by remote control. 

Hah, horror movie stuff.  Our electric co. uses helicopters for line surveys, but sends in manual crews for the trimming.

[Scoop Snoop]

Love the stove! And the real-deal log cabin. Not a modern version of one. I'm jealous.

[rocky_warrior]

Love the stove! And the real-deal log cabin. Not a modern version of one. I'm jealous.

That's not mine (or my chalet), just looks like mine.

[Scoop Snoop]

That's not mine (or my chalet), just looks like mine.

So much for your rugged mountain man image.