Next Level

[Goose]

Irwin

The game has changed a great deal since he left Texas. I do not want him to change anything other than recruiting higher level recruits and filling in with the right portal guys when he needed. I just do not think we will ever see development from lower end recruits like we saw from TK and Oso again. That said, I think this incoming freshman class is the best we have seen in the Shaka era. I hope that trend continues.

[tower912]

I get what Goose is saying and I get Irwin's rebuttal.  Shaka came to MU determined to do it his way and not chase 5 stars that didn't mesh.  At MU, he has gone with character, retention, and development.  It worked pretty well.   But now the anchors of the last two seasons are leaving.  And the existential question is whether or not Shaka stays his course or chases an impact transfer.
   IMO, that will be answered by who remains.   If the other 12 stay, Shaka doesn't have room.  Again, IMO, the only thing I can see him chasing is a PG as an insurance policy for Sean.   But I just don't see him doing a bag drop.

All of this becomes moot if there are a lot of departures.

So, I see him holding to his principles until there is a wave of departures.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

As stated earlier, Shaka caught lightning in a bottle. 

He did? How is that?

Maybe he's a really good coach who knows what he is doing.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So you want Shaka to deviate from his plan that has brought success the last 3 years?  Deviate from the plan that was built after his time at Texas that proved to not work, and thus he developed his current plan?

Yeah you'd think that after the last couple of years, people would be happy over how he is building the program. Way ahead of schedule with results greater than anyone should reasonably expect.

[Its DJOver]

Weird that the same folks that want to bring in multiple players, therefore cutting someone, are the same that insisted that an Omax replacement was coming this time last year.

[Goose]

tower

I am 100% behind retention of players and hope that trends continues. By no means do I want Shaka chasing guys out to hit the portal. My point is simple, I think Shaka needs to recruit higher level players that he can retain. Probably not 5 star players, but possibly not all around 100 in rankings.

Fluff

I know you read every post on scoop and I have ever given any indication that I do not think Shaka is a great coach or I am not 100% supportive of any way he runs the program? You are a smart basketball guy and am surprised that you do not think there was some luck in the development of TK and Oso. Probably the biggest stroke of luck was how they complimented each other.

There is no doubt that Shaka has developed players at a very high level, but no other player comes close to TK and Oso in development. I am very happy that we were able to witness the growth of those two, but I am not expecting it again anytime soon.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I have no idea how much luck was involved with either of them. Maybe they were fortunate in some respects sure, but using phrases like "genie in a bottle" suggests that Shaka just manage to stumble across these guys. Oso was here, but Tyler and OMax were recruited here as transfers.

[barfolomew]

Yes. Now go off and entertain the children and let's the adults talk here ok?

[Goose]

Fluff

I am pretty sure that I know the history of the players being discussed but thank you for the reminder. Again, I am a vocal Shaka guy and will be here for as long as he is here because I think he is great for the university, not just the basketball program. That said, if Shaka expected this type of growth from TK and Oso he is the greatest scout of talent in the history of the game. Of course there was some luck in the development. Biggest stroke of luck might be that they were best friends, similar goals and had zero problem complimenting each other on and off the court. IMO, that probably added a great deal to the success on the court.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Mark this thread down as one of the rare times that I completely agree with Goose.

The rarity of a mid-major transfer turning into a 2x All-American is the definition of lightning in a bottle. Without TKO, it's a nice team, top 4 in the BE, but nowhere near a team that spends a lot of time top 10 nationally.

Next year, I think, is the biggest coaching challenge in what will be Shaka's 4 years here. What he has delivered here in his first three years has been nothing short of amazing and far, far exceeded expectations. If I have one niggling question mark, it's about his HS recruiting. Given that his first class are just rising juniors, the jury is still out, but I also am of the opinion that for sustained success we'll need to recruit at a higher level as I think the chance of finding another TKO is about nil.

[tower912]

Goose, I know this is heresy, but ponder Bo Ryan.  He retained and developed.  Every year, his recruiting classes were disparaged.   Every year, his team ended up in the mix.   He caught lightning with Kaminsky and basketball-boumcing-off-his-face-guy.   
   Shaka is basically trying to replicate that.  I know it is an anachronism in current college basketball.   But watching players get better over 3-4 years used to be the norm.   
   On the other hand, MU has always had transfers and once upon a time used JUCO's.   Part of the MU heritage.  I am not anti-transfer.   
   I am standing by my opinion.   Shaka is doing things how he wants to and will continue to do so until there are mass unexpected departures.   I think he likes the potential of next season's roster and if no one else leaves, then no one else comes in.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Goose, I know this is heresy, but ponder Bo Ryan.

^ ban dis guy

[We R Final Four]

If Shaka brings in a transfer to replace OMax as you desired, two things happen. That incoming transfer may very well leave for the pros or for another school after the season AND that player who was "skipped" over also very well leaves because they saw their spot filled. I know, I know....if he was good enough he would have played, right?
At that point, Shaka is back in the portal attempting to stop gap this position again with no continuity. Its not what he is doing here.
I have absolutely no problem with Shaka's approach.

[nyg]

I am little confused.  A lot of talk about Shaka must recruit at a "higher level", yet for the class of 2024, he has a Top 40 recruit in Owens and a Top 90 recruit in Parham.  Even Goose stated the 2024 is the best class in Shaka era. Then some state don't go after the Burger Boys, because one and dones don't fit in his system. Don't over recruit current players because it may affect the "culture".

So, what is the definition of recruiting at a higher level?  Is the 2024 class of Owens and Parham not a higher level for the two openings that were available?  Shaka is in on two highly rated point guards, plus others in 2025, but that's a ways off. I am hoping that the higher level means starting with the 2025 class, because 2024 was pretty good with two players.

The class of 2023 with Norman, Lowery and Amadou was underwhelming to say the least, especially with Norman and Lowery not playing one minute in last two NCAAT games, with a beat up MU squad.  Hamilton is a player no one has any clue as to how he plays. I'll wait for the usual freshman into sophomore improvement responses, but hopefully super, super improvements.

2025 will be the barometer of how Shaka can continue from 2024 class.

[Goose]

Tower

I am 95% in agreement with you. My OP was more in lines of MU being a top ten program vs a top 25 program. I have zero doubt what he is done the last three years gives me confidence in being a top 25 program. My curiosity is based off of the game has changed a great deal in three years and seeing how Shaka responds.

Again, as a fan, I hope he recruits higher level kids that hang around for 3-4 years and portal when needed. While I would be disappointed if MU does not build off of the last two years and becomes a top 10 program, I support Shaka regardless. I am not suggesting wholesale change in philosophy, maybe a tweak to compete with other ways of building a top 10 team.

[lawdog77]

The thing I can't quite wrap my head around is that if a team is very close to winning a national championship, and one piece (a la Cam Spencer) could put you over the Top why not get him? It's not upsetting the culture, IMO, because if player(s) are upset that playing time is being taken away for 1 year because of an increased chance to win it all, does that upset player really fit the culture?

[Vander Blue Man Group]

To me, assuming Kam comes back, the keys to how high the ceiling of the team will be next season are Ross, Gold, Norman and Lowery.  I suppose that's a pretty obvious statement.

I think Kam, Stevie and Jop can continue to improve but they're closer to their ceilings.  Can Kam be more of a playmaker while continuing to score at such a high, efficient level.  Can Stevie take another step offensively and become more consistent from 3?  Can Jop become more consistent in general, tighten up his handle, etc?

Anything we get from Al, Caedin, Parham and Owens will be a bonus. 

Hopefully all these guys have great, healthy offseasons.  Shaka has definitely earned the benefit of the doubt as far as the development we can expect. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The thing I can't quite wrap my head around is that if a team is very close to winning a national championship, and one piece (a la Cam Spencer) could put you over the Top why not get him? It's not upsetting the culture, IMO, because if player(s) are upset that playing time is being taken away for 1 year because of an increased chance to win it all, does that upset player really fit the culture?

Probably not. And Shaka did reach out to a couple - and maybe more because he plays it close to the vest. So he's not against using the portal - he's reached out to guys this year too.

[MUfan12]

MU reaches out to more players than what hits twitter, both with the portal and HS guys. They like to stay close to the vest. It's how they were able to snag Tre when all the big names started to take notice.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

ED: This was in response to nyg

I don't think you are confused at all, you pretty much reiterated the idea that recruiting at a higher level is ideal. Hopefully Owens is just the start of top 50 recruits.

The 2023 class is still somewhat of an unknown. I liked what I saw of Zaide in terms of potential if not immediate results, and Tre certainly showed improvement as the year went on. And, it isn't necessarily surprising they got limited opportunities given there were 8 returning rotation players, but they didn't exactly seize the moment when injuries popped up.

I am not at all saying Shaka should change his philosophy, but I am hoping he can find move 4 stars that buy into his program. I'm hopeful/optimistic that the success that he has already delivered will make that easier to achieve.

[IrwinFletcher]

tower

I am 100% behind retention of players and hope that trends continues. By no means do I want Shaka chasing guys out to hit the portal. My point is simple, I think Shaka needs to recruit higher level players that he can retain. Probably not 5 star players, but possibly not all around 100 in rankings.

Fluff

I know you read every post on scoop and I have ever given any indication that I do not think Shaka is a great coach or I am not 100% supportive of any way he runs the program? You are a smart basketball guy and am surprised that you do not think there was some luck in the development of TK and Oso. Probably the biggest stroke of luck was how they complimented each other.

There is no doubt that Shaka has developed players at a very high level, but no other player comes close to TK and Oso in development. I am very happy that we were able to witness the growth of those two, but I am not expecting it again anytime soon.

Shaka has recruited two guys coming in that are in the back half of the Top 50 lists.  If you start chasing higher recruits, you start infringing on the issues that Shaka ran into at Texas.  One and done types (or at least believing that is the case, guys demanding playing time and transferring out if it isn't there, not committing if they know playing time isn't there etc). 

And can we stop with the argument that Shaka doesn't use the portal?  He has brought in a handful of guys that have led to the resurgence of the program and gotten us to where we are today, which is Top 15 in the way to early polls for year #4.  Just because he didn't grab anyone last year doesn't mean that he has abandoned the portal.  It simply didn't fit what he felt was needed.  And if no one leaves (and based on comments from last night at the banquet I am not sure anyone is) don't expect a lot of portal activity again this year.

[79Warrior]

I think Shaka gets an A+++ for maximizing the potential over the last two years. Now, I am hoping there are better players coming to MU and they do not need to overachieve. I think the last two years were worked to perfection by all parties in the program.

Agree

[MUbiz]

I honestly do not get caught up with the number or stars next to a guys name.  Here are the top recruits of this past year, outside of Castle and a few others, there is not many that made a massive impact in their first year in the top 30. Fit, culture and the ability to want to be coached are invaluable and I trust Shaka to make that choice of who to bring in.

https://247sports.com/Season/2023-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool/

If you have not heard this - Hurley sums this up perfectly when it comes to team culture and even talks about the helicopter parents:

https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/1777845078628688191

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I'm not overly concerned about Norman and Lowey not playing much in the tournament.  The freshman versions of Oso, Stevie, Jop, and Gold wouldn't have played either.

If Kam returns, along with Stevie and Chase, we just need Tre and Zaide to grow into 15-18 mpg rotation players (think Sean Jones and Ben Gold sophomore year playing time).  If Damarius Owens is good enough to beat them out, then that's a bonus to have a freshman that good.

We'll know a lot more about Tre and Zaide a year from now.

[Uncle Rico]

Tower and Goose are barking up the same tree and both are correct.

Tower is correct about retention and development.  Forget Bo Ryan as the example and focus on Jay Wright.  Wright's best teams got old together.  I'd also challenge you to go look at the recruiting classes that built the dynasty. They look pretty familiar.

What Wright's success got him was, the ability to recruit top-30 guys like Spellman, Quinerly and Jermaine Robinson-Earl.  The type of players Goose is referring to.

We have to take into account the new era, but I'd rather fill around the edges on recruiting misses and early entries that developed faster than they anticipated.

Trust the process.