Tyler Kolek's "legacy"

[Shooter McGavin]

Good post again 82!  Agree. 

[The Sultan]

If only Shaka had listened to Dung Willie and played TKO 38 minutes/game in the BET.

Those discussions look so funny in retrospect.

[MU82]

"Funny" is one word for 'em!

[BM1090]

Those discussions look so funny in retrospect.

Yep. I wanted him to play if he could. Certainly happy he didn't now. If there was even 1% risk I'm glad he rested.

[Jay Bee]

Could already have had a banner

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Getting back to Tyler Kolek ...

He played all 40 minutes Sunday and 78 minutes over the weekend. He moved freely, appeared able to attempt every pass and shot he wanted, chest-bumped his teammates, had enough energy down the stretch Sunday to take over a game that we desperately needed him to take over, etc. If I didn't know he was coming off an injury to his core that was serious enough to sideline him for 6 games, I never would have thought he was hurt at all.

It seems highly unlikely to me that he was way too injured to play at all March 16 but that he was able to be a full-contact practice participant March 18 and 100% good to play March 22, so I'm fully believing Shaka's statement that TK could have played the previous week had the national title been on the line.

But the national title wasn't on the line the previous week, and I applaud all the decision-makers - from the medical and training staffs, to Tyler and his family, to Shaka - for keeping their eyes on the real prize.

Winning the national title was the stated goal back in October ... and to have a chance to achieve it, we needed TK to be as healthy as possible for the NCAA tournament.

And now here Shaka, Kolek & Co. are, 1/3 of the way toward accomplishing that goal, already with Marquette's deepest run in the NCAAs in more than a decade.

As for "legacy," it's a tricky word, and different people define it different ways. In my eyes, at least, TK already has established his legacy at Marquette. Can he improve on it? Damn right he can ... so he might as well!

Risk for reinjury was still significant during BET so he didn't play.  That's all there is to it. If he was limited but no significant risk for reinjury he would have been out there.

[Newsdreams]

If only Shaka had listened to Dung Willie and played TKO 38 minutes/game in the BET.

Show some respect, it is dung dr.!

[TallTitan34]

Could already have had a banner

Psh we've made the S16 banner at the Al.

[MU82]

Risk for reinjury was still significant during BET so he didn't play.  That's all there is to it. If he was limited but no significant risk for reinjury he would have been out there.

While deferring to your inside information, TAMU, I do admit I wonder why there wasn't significant risk for reinjury as a full participant in full-contact practice a day or 2 after the BET. Marquette's full-contact practices are not for the weak of heart - or torso.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

While deferring to your inside information, TAMU, I do admit I wonder why there wasn't significant risk for reinjury as a full participant in full-contact practice a day or 2 after the BET. Marquette's full-contact practices are not for the weak of heart - or torso.

Who says there wasn't?

Everyone agrees that the NCAAT was infinitely more important than the BET. Everyone also agreed that if there was any significant risk of reinjury that Tyler should sit. Where there was disagreement was if there was no significant risk of reinjury Tyler should sit because the BET means nothing.

[MU82]

Who says there wasn't?

Everyone agrees that the NCAAT was infinitely more important than the BET. Everyone also agreed that if there was any significant risk of reinjury that Tyler should sit. Where there was disagreement was if there was no significant risk of reinjury Tyler should sit because the BET means nothing.

Understood.

Any way one looks at it, I am very happy TK sat out the BET - as doing so increased the odds of him being fit enough to play as he did in Indy. That was a pleasure to observe.

[mug644]

Few questions:

What is the criteria for retiring a player's number?

Is it only on court accomplishments while at MU? For example, if Kolek becomes an NBA all-star does that have any impact on retiring his MU jersey? I don't think Wade's legacy at MU finished with the Kansas loss.

Lastly, who decides if a player's number gets retired?

I think these are good questions.

For me the number one criteria is national honors. Were they an All-American? 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team? Was it consensus? Did they win an award like the Bob Cousy or Senior Class Award? Do they hold any D1 records?

I would say the next level of importance is Conference POY/record holder and team success. Were they conference player of the year? Do they hold a conference record of some sort? Did they lead their team conference championships and/or deep runs in March?

I think you need to hit these levels and everything else is just gravy. I think pro success matters but only a little. For example, JFB is probably the second best pro to come out of Marquette. I don't see his number ever getting retired because he didn't earn any national or even conference honors and his Sweet 16 run wasn't enough to counteract that.

Am I correct in recalling that one formal criterion was/is that the player has earned a degree from MU? Didn't that delay DWade's ceremony? Maybe even Doc's?

And since TyKo can't read, I suppose it will be tough to give him a degree.

He already deserves to have his jersey retired. The further we go in the tournament this year, the faster the jersey retirement should and will happen.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Who says there wasn't?

Everyone agrees that the NCAAT was infinitely more important than the BET. Everyone also agreed that if there was any significant risk of reinjury that Tyler should sit. Where there was disagreement was if there was no significant risk of reinjury Tyler should sit because the BET means nothing.

Yep. The MU 2 seed draw is looking pretty good vs. Creighton's 3 seed now.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Understood.

Any way one looks at it, I am very happy TK sat out the BET - as doing so increased the odds of him being fit enough to play as he did in Indy. That was a pleasure to observe.

I'm very happy they listened to the medical staff about Tyler.

I'm also very happy they listened to the medical staff about Stevie, Kam, and Oso and let them play in the "meaningless" BET despite them nursing injuries as well.

[MU82]

I'm very happy they listened to the medical staff about Tyler.

I'm also very happy they listened to the medical staff about Stevie, Kam, and Oso and let them play in the "meaningless" BET despite them nursing injuries as well.

You're a smart guy, TAMU, so you know there are owwies (manageable pain), there are injuries and there are serious injuries. This time of year, every team has multiple guys playing through manageable pain/injuries of some kind. You also know that some games mean more than others. I have already acknowledged that the BET wasn't "meaningless," but I know that some Scoopers still maintain that it was.

Question, though:

So Shaka saying Kolek definitely would have played the week of the BET had it been the national title game was just either a tall tale or gamesmanship?

If it was either, I don't blame him, and I'm not calling him a liar. Coaches "stretch the truth" all the time when it suits the cause.

[Jay Bee]

Guys, I now know why Tyler was able to do so well in Indy.

I didn't play Pickleball for a full week until last night. My body got right, but I also took time to think about my game, watch video, get my MIND right.

Last night, I dominated. Has never played so well. Next level was reached. Same paddle. Same Pickleball shoes. NEW ME!

Tyler? Same thing. We are brothers in athletics.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You're a smart guy, TAMU, so you know there are owwies (manageable pain), there are injuries and there are serious injuries. This time of year, every team has multiple guys playing through manageable pain/injuries of some kind. You also know that some games mean more than others. I have already acknowledged that the BET wasn't "meaningless," but I know that some Scoopers still maintain that it was.

Question, though:

So Shaka saying Kolek definitely would have played the week of the BET had it been the national title game was just either a tall tale or gamesmanship?

If it was either, I don't blame him, and I'm not calling him a liar. Coaches "stretch the truth" all the time when it suits the cause.

No, a national championship means more than a BET championship (duh). Shaka would have been willing to play Tyler despite the sihnificant risk of reinjury. There's a point with some injuries where players can play but are at risk for reinjury. Shaka wasn't lying about anything.

I've said this a couple of times but it doesn't seem to be translating.  My only beef was with those suggesting that even if Kolek wasn't at risk for reinjury he should sit because who cares about the BET? (The answer being Shaka, the team,  etc)

[Dr. Blackheart]

Guys, I now know why Tyler was able to do so well in Indy.

I didn't play Pickleball for a full week until last night. My body got right, but I also took time to think about my game, watch video, get my MIND right.

Last night, I dominated. Has never played so well. Next level was reached. Same paddle. Same Pickleball shoes. NEW ME!

Tyler? Same thing. We are brothers in athletics.

PED test back yet?

[avid1010]

While deferring to your inside information, TAMU, I do admit I wonder why there wasn't significant risk for reinjury as a full participant in full-contact practice a day or 2 after the BET. Marquette's full-contact practices are not for the weak of heart - or torso.

There's no way they were practicing with TKO, Oso, Stevie, Chase, etc... like they were even mid-season.  I'm sure they needed to get him back into form and flow, but obviously full-contact means different things at different times of the season.  That said, their level of intensity at practice, even late in the year amazes me.  They do show common sense, however.  No one was taking a cheap shot at Kolek in practice.  That was absolutely going to happen in the BEAST tournament on top of the tournament intensity with a BEAST whistle.  We saw that a few times with Stevie and Oso. 

[MU82]

No, a national championship means more than a BET championship (duh). Shaka would have been willing to play Tyler despite the sihnificant risk of reinjury. There's a point with some injuries where players can play but are at risk for reinjury. Shaka wasn't lying about anything.

I've said this a couple of times but it doesn't seem to be translating.  My only beef was with those suggesting that even if Kolek wasn't at risk for reinjury he should sit because who cares about the BET? (The answer being Shaka, the team,  etc)

I think we're finally on the same page here - actually, I think we already were but might have been bogged down in semantics.

And speaking of semantics ...

I'm having a little trouble with the way "medically cleared" has been tossed about in this case.

When I hear that an athlete "isn't medically cleared to play," I take it to mean that, regardless how important a game might be, the athlete simply can't play. Why? Because he's not medically cleared to do so - he isn't healthy enough. But if what you said earlier is true - and I have every reason to believe it is, because it's common sense - then Tyler could have played the week of the BET had the national title been on the line. Therefore, he must have been medically cleared to do so.

If that's not right, then "medically cleared" is a meaningless term. Either you're medically cleared or you're not.

[MuggsyB]

Happy b-day to Tyko. 

[Uncle Rico]

The biggest problem with Tyler being soft was, Dung had to see them lose a game while sitting on his couch

[MU82]

Within an article previewing the next phase of the tournament, The Athletic's Brian Bennett wrote:

It's still got the artistry of Marquette's offense led by point guard Tyler Kolek, the closest thing to Steve Nash the college game has seen in years ...

[Herman Cain]

It was 9-9-9's use of "somewhere among" that raised my eyebrows.

Kolek is as "somewhere among" a list of players that includes Oliver Lee, Michael Wilson, Sam Hauser, Brian Wardle and Vander Blue" as Larry Bird is "somewhere among" a list of former NBA players that includes Hersey Hawkins, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Hornacek, Gus Williams and Trevor Ariza.

It doesn't mean those 5 former pros I named weren't accomplished, but I think you'd agree it's silly to rank Bird "among" them.

MU82:
Not sure if you saw the original post, in response to the legacy question you posed. I have enormous respect for Tyko ,Tied for second All Time among MU Point Guards with two others . Also have in top 20 overall. There are 4 other positions and each of those have at least 4 great players . So thats how I got to 20.

Also I said TyKo still has opportunity to move higher cause he is still playing.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=66003.msg1644417#msg1644417

The list I made was in response to Goose question about who ranked above Tyko in Post Al Era. My response is only Wade.

The reference list is the post Al stars we have had. There is a recency bias and list really just lays out how many great players we have had .

Add in the Al and Pre Al Era Stars and Top 20 at a historic basketball school like MU is a big deal.

Here is another way to look at it. Ranking the top players is like a golf tournament . The historical guys are in the clubhouse, TyKo still has 4 more holes on the board one is a Par 5 he can Eagle. If Tyko takes us to promised land he passes a lot of truly great college players and moves well up the MU leaderboard

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TKo is one of three 2 time all americans in program history and has led Marquette to its two highest seeds in program history. The dude is in the clubhouse and any guys not on the national championship team or not named Dwyane are below him at this point.

I don't know what the opposite of receny bias is, but you got it Herm.