2023-24 NBA Thread

[WhiteTrash]

It's cute that Anthony Edwards believes that, aside from Michael Jordan, no NBA player had any skill until Kobe Bryant came along.

"I didn't watch it back in the day, so I can't speak on it. They say it was tougher back then than it is now, but I don't think anybody had skill back then. [Michael Jordan] was the only one that really had skill, you know what I mean? So, that's why when they saw Kobe [Bryant], they were like, 'Oh, my God.' But now everybody has skill."

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5723752/2024/08/26/anthony-edwards-magic-johnson-lakers-timberwolves-nba-kobe-bryant-lakers-the-bounce/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=3738391

It's even cuter that he started his ridiculous take by admitting he was ignorant on the subject.

I think it is fair to say guys like Dr. J, Magic, Bird, Ewing, Barkly etc. had no "skill" and would be in the G-League today. 

[BM1090]

He's embellishing for sure but he has a point. The league is 100x more skilled than it was 20 years ago. And it's SO much deeper. Most guys that are fifth or sixth off the bench would be surefire starters in the 90s.

But yeah, the way he chose to make his point was definitely flawed.

[WhiteTrash]

He's embellishing for sure but he has a point. The league is 100x more skilled than it was 20 years ago. And it's SO much deeper. Most guys that are fifth or sixth off the bench would be surefire starters in the 90s.

But yeah, the way he chose to make his point was definitely flawed.

Speaking of "embellishing". "100x"? Really? 2x would represent a massive 100% improvement.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

nm

[BM1090]

Speaking of "embellishing". "100x"? Really? 2x would represent a massive 100% improvement.

I'm aware what I did.

[Pakuni]

He's embellishing for sure but he has a point. The league is 100x more skilled than it was 20 years ago. And it's SO much deeper. Most guys that are fifth or sixth off the bench would be surefire starters in the 90s.

But yeah, the way he chose to make his point was definitely flawed.

Is it really, though?
No doubt the players are bigger/faster/stronger, but more skilled? Maybe, but to me the game is played far simpler today (dunks and threes) than it was in the 80s and 90s. I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the most skilled players in the league today come from overseas there those things are stressed to young players vs how the game is played here, which again relies more on pure athleticism.
Just a thought.

[MU82]

He's embellishing for sure but he has a point. The league is 100x more skilled than it was 20 years ago. And it's SO much deeper. Most guys that are fifth or sixth off the bench would be surefire starters in the 90s.

But yeah, the way he chose to make his point was definitely flawed.

This is 1,000x sillier than most Scoop takes.

[lawdog77]

He's embellishing for sure but he has a point. The league is 100x more skilled than it was 20 years ago. And it's SO much deeper. Most guys that are fifth or sixth off the bench would be surefire starters in the 90s.

But yeah, the way he chose to make his point was definitely flawed.

Please show your work

[JWags85]

Is it really, though?
No doubt the players are bigger/faster/stronger, but more skilled? Maybe, but to me the game is played far simpler today (dunks and threes) than it was in the 80s and 90s. I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the most skilled players in the league today come from overseas there those things are stressed to young players vs how the game is played here, which again relies more on pure athleticism.
Just a thought.

I think the current NBA has far superior shot making than decades ago.  The number of filthy scorers (that are deficient in many areas and thus not stars) is pretty remarkable when you consider the increases in size, speed, and training/nutrition/etc... that has grown in the game over the last 30+ years.  Its not an insult to the skills of the players at the time but the biggest thing when watching older games is the general speed of movement, IMO.

But I don't think other skills like passing, dribbling, rebounding, court vision, etc... are vastly superior than they used to be.

[Shaka Shart]

Is it really, though?
No doubt the players are bigger/faster/stronger, but more skilled? Maybe, but to me the game is played far simpler today (dunks and threes) than it was in the 80s and 90s. I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the most skilled players in the league today come from overseas there those things are stressed to young players vs how the game is played here, which again relies more on pure athleticism.
Just a thought.

Skilled as in the shooters are just significantly better than in the 90s. 3 pt attempts per game more than doubled but overall fg% remains pretty flat to the 90s.

You can argue the defensive rule changes open up spacing for that better, but the fact that 3 pt percentage has actually gotten better at more than twice the attempts is pretty remarkable.

[WhiteTrash]

I think the current NBA has far superior shot making than decades ago.  The number of filthy scorers (that are deficient in many areas and thus not stars) is pretty remarkable when you consider the increases in size, speed, and training/nutrition/etc... that has grown in the game over the last 30+ years.  Its not an insult to the skills of the players at the time but the biggest thing when watching older games is the general speed of movement, IMO.

But I don't think other skills like passing, dribbling, rebounding, court vision, etc... are vastly superior than they used to be.

How do you reconcile this with the popular opinion that Jordan would have averages 5-10 ppg more today? I do believe this is true with the way the game is officiated today and the way Jordan was "abused" by  defenders. But I also recognize players are better physically today in all sports. Also, maybe Jordan is not an appropriate gauge of overall talent.

I don't have strong feelings either way just throwing out some ideas/questions.

[BM1090]

We're just defining "skilled" differently. That's fine, but it makes a discussion largely pointless unless we want to get into the semantics of "skilled".

But because someone asked. I took the 1990-91 Bucks, chose at random due to similar record and placing and compared it to this roster. The 90-91 Bucks went 48-34 and placed 4th in the East. Last year's Bucks were 49-33 and placed 3rd.

Do you think that bench guys like Pat Connaughton, Bobby Portis, Andre Jackson wouldn't start over 90-91 starters Fred Roberts, Frank Brickowski and Danny Schayes? Those three would be quickly played off the floor. I understand it's a different game, but it's largely a different game because players are more skilled (and athletic)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1991.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2024.html

And the 2024 team is stronger at the top too with Giannis, Dame and Khris vs. Humphries and Robinson. So yes, I think most starters on solid 90s teams would barely be in the 2024 rotations.

There are obviously exceptions, though.

[BM1090]

Skilled as in the shooters are just significantly better than in the 90s. 3 pt attempts per game more than doubled but overall fg% remains pretty flat to the 90s.

You can argue the defensive rule changes open up spacing for that better, but the fact that 3 pt percentage has actually gotten better at more than twice the attempts is pretty remarkable.

Yep. The best shooters are better. The average shooters are better. The worst shooters are better. And I'd argue it's the same for ball handling and passing.

90s players are probably craftier in some cases since they had to be to deal with the defensive rules.

[Pakuni]

Skilled as in the shooters are just significantly better than in the 90s. 3 pt attempts per game more than doubled but overall fg% remains pretty flat to the 90s.

You can argue the defensive rule changes open up spacing for that better, but the fact that 3 pt percentage has actually gotten better at more than twice the attempts is pretty remarkable.

Sure, but as JWags notes above, shooting is one skill.
Has dribbling gotten 100 times better? Passing? Individual shot creating? On ball defense? Post defense? Rebounding?
(I'd argue ... and the stats and people around the league agree  ... that defense has become worse, in part because of rules changes).

[BM1090]

Is it really, though?
No doubt the players are bigger/faster/stronger, but more skilled? Maybe, but to me the game is played far simpler today (dunks and threes) than it was in the 80s and 90s. I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the most skilled players in the league today come from overseas there those things are stressed to young players vs how the game is played here, which again relies more on pure athleticism.
Just a thought.

Based on what? The top 10 shooters by percentage in the NBA this year were American. Luka is the first foreign player on the list at #15.

Only 2 of the top 25 in makes were foriegn. Luka at #2 and Bogdanovic at #6.

Less quantifiable, but I'd argue the same would prove true for ball handling.

Edit: only two of the top twenty in APG were European. One more (SGA) was Canadian. The other 17 are American.

[lawdog77]

Sure, but as JWags notes above, shooting is one skill.
Has dribbling gotten 100 times better? Passing? Individual shot creating? On ball defense? Post defense? Rebounding?
(I'd argue ... and the stats and people around the league agree  ... that defense has become worse, in part because of rules changes).

Just from the eye test, dribbling is much better now (especially for the "taller" guys). Don't know how one would measure by how much, though.

[Pakuni]

Based on what? The top 10 shooters by percentage in the NBA this year were American. Luka is the first foreign player on the list at #15.

Only 2 of the top 25 in makes were foriegn. Luka at #2 and Bogdanovic at #6.

Less quantifiable, but I'd argue the same would prove true for ball handling.

Again, shooting is just one skill. And the NBA's neutering of perimeter defense can't be ignored.

[BM1090]

Again, shooting is just one skill. And the NBA's neutering of perimeter defense can't be ignored.

I do agree on the point you make about defense.

But I included stats for APG too. Same story for blocks. And when i think of the best ball handlers in the league, I think of mostly Americans.

Rebounding is largely dominated by foreign-born players, which for some reason I struggle to wrap my head around.

[forgetful]

Just from the eye test, dribbling is much better now (especially for the "taller" guys). Don't know how one would measure by how much, though.

Well I guess if ridiculous degrees of palming and traveling are considered more skilled dribbling, than sure?

Watch videos of Shaq playing 1 on 1. He was a skilled ball handler, it just wasn't his role in the offense.

Rules are different. Shoes/training is different. Comparing eras is kind of pointless.

[wadesworld]

I just came to see if the argument had been made that MJ wasn't all that and was more of a floor general that was propped up by having great players around him.  Disappointed in Scoop to see nobody has shown this yet.

[Pakuni]

Well I guess if ridiculous degrees of palming and traveling are considered more skilled dribbling, than sure?

Watch videos of Shaq playing 1 on 1. He was a skilled ball handler, it just wasn't his role in the offense.

Hakeem was ridiculously skilled as well. Not a shooter (though I suspect he could have developed into one in a different era) but I'd rank his passing and ballhandling skills with any current big not named Jokic. And both his post scoring and defensive skills were off the charts.

[lawdog77]

Hakeem was ridiculously skilled as well. Not a shooter (though I suspect he could have developed into one in a different era) but I'd rank his passing and ballhandling skills with any current big not named Jokic. And both his post scoring and defensive skills were off the charts.

Shaq and Hakeem were the exception not the rule

[forgetful]

Shaq and Hakeem were the exception not the rule

How about Bill Russell? I'm sure you can still find a clip of him grabbing a rebound, dribbling past everyone, and jumping over a guy from near the FT line.

Skilled big men have been around since basketball was invented.

[Shaka Shart]

I just came to see if the argument had been made that MJ wasn't all that and was more of a floor general that was propped up by having great players around him.  Disappointed in Scoop to see nobody has shown this yet.

Michael Starr

[Shaka Shart]

Sure, but as JWags notes above, shooting is one skill.
Has dribbling gotten 100 times better? Passing? Individual shot creating? On ball defense? Post defense? Rebounding?
(I'd argue ... and the stats and people around the league agree  ... that defense has become worse, in part because of rules changes).

I personally wasn't saying 100 times better in any regard. I'd say overall dribbling has improved on the level of that more of the league can do it routinely no matter the position. (Yes prior era players could do it, but the breadth of the league who can and does is larger now)

I am not sure how to quantify it (or do but lack the motivation) but I would be really curious to see how higher octane offenses driven by ridiculously high usage long guards such as Luka or Harden correlates with lower rebounding numbers for interior players. When Westbrook was in his prime he would corral a large amount of rebounds because the goal was to push the tempo and not waste time moving the ball to him, instead your size boxes out the defense and let your explosive guard push up court.