Health Care Workforce

[pbiflyer]

No one is saying they aren't underpaid. My daughter is a nurse and I am well aware of everything they are all going through.

My point is that the issues that cause burnout can't be solved just by paying current workers more money. They need to train and hire more people, and give them all the respect and working conditions they deserve.

Not a very "Yah capitalism" view there.
But yes, agree 1000 percent on your points. I have tons of friends that are/were nurses. What they do is obviously not for the money. It amazes me that they willingly do some of the things they do. And the stories they tell during Covid are harrowing.
You couldn't pay me enough money to do their job. But thanks to my nurse friends, I do recognize the sound of the trauma hawk helicopter when it flies over versus the many others from the local Sikorsky plant nearby.
Say thanks to your daughter for her work. It is appreciated.

[JWags85]

Compensation is normalized nationwide with WFH.
Yes that is entry level salary, maybe 125K if the RSU package is great.
Sales people with a few years of experience are at ~$250k OTE.

I'm not sure that nurses and teachers realize how underpaid they are, or that the retired public realize where current salaries are at. I'm in my little tech company bubble though, so, you guys aren't wrong.

I think being an RN is a harder job. Like Warriorchick said, though, people going into nursing are doing it for different reasons than those working at tech companies. I can't imagine working as a nurse or teacher during this pandemic, you're getting it from both ends.

Sales people have no place in this discussion, apples and oranges when you're looking at direct revenue production.

But a "harder" job, based on?  Being a roofer is a "harder" than almost every office job.  Anything involving manual labor is harder than anything in finance or marketing.  But that doesn't mean they are more difficult or they have the same qualifications or barriers to entry.

Again, I'm not trying to crap on nurses.  I have utmost respect for them and feel for their disrespect. I just have an issue with when salary/compensation discussions become detached from reality and center in emotion or sympathy.  Like when people pop off on social media saying teachers should all make $100K+.

[MU82]

There are at least 30 executives at my wife's "not-for-profit" hospital group making 7-figure salaries.

Yes, I know that's simply how it is. Capitalism and all that.

But it's a bad look to the worker bees who actually have to deal with the non-stop flow of patients.

[MUDPT]

Funny.  Meriter has a postings for RN jobs.  Minimum pay is $77k.  That don't seem like  chump change to me.

$36.89 is 77k for 40 hours. None of those jobs are 40 hours. Unless I'm missing some.

[MUDPT]

There are at least 30 executives at my wife's "not-for-profit" hospital group making 7-figure salaries.

Yes, I know that's simply how it is. Capitalism and all that.

But it's a bad look to the worker bees who actually have to deal with the non-stop flow of patients.

This. UW hospital CEO just got a huge raise for a "market correction." I thought this was a "business." If he wants a raise, go find a competitive offer that pays more and tell them to match it.

[jesmu84]

Most hospitals are SWIMMING in cash right now

[#UnleashSean]

One of my wife's friends left at the start of the year due to them threatening the vaccine mandate- she took a travel nurse job in Florida where she's making $70k to work three 12 hour shifts a week for 12 weeks.   Working 3 days a week in FL during the WI winter months for $70k, and chilling on the beach the other 4 days.  They really showed her!!  I'm pro vaccine. I'm vaccinated myself as is my family, but it just kind of makes you shake your head.

This is exactly what 3 of the nurses I know did. One did it in the first summer of covid. Working 3  on 4 off. Getting paid over 100/hr and living at his families house in Florida also banking the stipend for housing. We went down for 2 weeks and had a blast.

I've been thinking about doing that, but I know this pay won't lost forever and haven't fully given up on my career/job (mostly life right now) with the special needs side of things. Other thing that stops me is im largely out of practice on icu.

[warriorchick]

This. UW hospital CEO just got a huge raise for a "market correction." I thought this was a "business." If he wants a raise, go find a competitive offer that pays more and tell them to match it.

A market correction just means you are preemptively matching it. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace someone at that level. It's cheaper in the long run to keep the current person happy.
Also, no one at the C-level of a corporation that large would do a "match this offer I got" . It's considered highly unprofessional at that level. Either you accept the offer  or turn it down.

[Hards Alumni]

Sez da guy hoos payin' minimum wages, hey?

Incorrect.  Living wage which is $15/hr.  No training or certification required.  Paid vacation, 401k, flexible scheduling.  We used to pay 50% towards health care until the 50% that the employees contributed was more than the cost of insurance on the ACA's website.  Which is also the insurance I'm personally on.

I'm not hiring people with degrees to drive a van... unless they want to.  I hide nothing.

Good try though.

[Hards Alumni]

Funny.  Meriter has a postings for RN jobs.  Minimum pay is $77k.  That don't seem like  chump change to me.

Cool, now do LPNs, and CNAs.

[jesmu84]

Incorrect.  Living wage which is $15/hr.  No training or certification required.  Paid vacation, 401k, flexible scheduling.  We used to pay 50% towards health care until the 50% that the employees contributed was more than the cost of insurance on the ACA's website.  Which is also the insurance I'm personally on.

I'm not hiring people with degrees to drive a van... unless they want to.  I hide nothing.

Good try though.

Ancillary, but I'd argue a living wage is more than $15/hr

[Hards Alumni]

Ancillary, but I'd argue a living wage is more than $15/hr

You can do that, but the living wage is set by the county, so there is a defined number, and it increases annually.

https://www.danepurchasing.com/LivingWage

Not all of our employees are compensated equally, and many have been working for us for 10+ years, and some 20+.  They have more vacation and make more.

[jesmu84]

You can do that, but the living wage is set by the county, so there is a defined number, and it increases annually.

https://www.danepurchasing.com/LivingWage

Not all of our employees are compensated equally, and many have been working for us for 10+ years, and some 20+.  They have more vacation and make more.

Understood.

I assumed when you used the phrase, you were speaking to overarching definition, not county/local definition.

[MUDPT]

A market correction just means you are preemptively matching it. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace someone at that level. It's cheaper in the long run to keep the current person happy.
Also, no one at the C-level of a corporation that large would do a "match this offer I got" . It's considered highly unprofessional at that level. Either you accept the offer  or turn it down.

I take it you've never worked in a healthcare organization.  Kaplan could get leave today, the hospital could hire the next minion and the hospital would operate the exact same.  A CEO in a health care organization does not equal a CEO in a random business.

[warriorchick]

I take it you've never worked in a healthcare organization.  Kaplan could get leave today, the hospital could hire the next minion and the hospital would operate the exact same.  A CEO in a health care organization does not equal a CEO in a random business.

Actually, I have. And whether they actually need to or not, organizations of this size go through the complete hiring process at this level, including hiring a retained search firm that takes 30 percent of the comp package plus expenses even if they know exactly who they want to hire. If they don't, they get accused of not considering every qualified applicant.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

$36.89 is 77k for 40 hours. None of those jobs are 40 hours. Unless I'm missing some.

A lot were .90 FTE.  But figured OT is available aplenty, so it was a wash.

[Jockey]

$36.89 is 77k for 40 hours. None of those jobs are 40 hours. Unless I'm missing some.

You're mostly right - although some nurses still prefer the 8 hrs a day for 5 days.

Most however prefer part time or three 12 hour days.

[MUDPT]

Nursing is not 9-5. $77k sounds like a lot, but enough to give up every 4th weekend or work Christmas Day? Or work 3-11 or 11p to 7a?

Actually, I have. And whether they actually need to or not, organizations of this size go through the complete hiring process at this level, including hiring a retained search firm that takes 30 percent of the comp package plus expenses even if they know exactly who they want to hire. If they don't, they get accused of not considering every qualified applicant.

Thanks for the information. Still makes no sense from the hospital's perspective.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Nursing is not 9-5. $77k sounds like a lot, but enough to give up every 4th weekend or work Christmas Day?

I've had jobs like that that didn't pay as much as $77k

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I've had jobs like that that didn't pay as much as $77k

Well yeah. But you're not exactly the benchmark people are shooting for.

[forgetful]

Actually, I have. And whether they actually need to or not, organizations of this size go through the complete hiring process at this level, including hiring a retained search firm that takes 30 percent of the comp package plus expenses even if they know exactly who they want to hire. If they don't, they get accused of not considering every qualified applicant.

So, they waste 100's of thousands of dollars on a hiring process that isn't needed, just to go through the motions?

Sounds like they have a lot of extra money they could have used on their regular employees.

Let's be honest and tell it like it is. They do that for C+ level execs, because it is other C+ level execs making the decision, and they want their raises to look the same, and want an artificial firm (consulting companies) to justify that decision by making it look expensive to replace them...artificially increases their perceived value.

The same thing is done in Academia. Administrators aren't part of the regular raise pool, because "they're special" and hard to replace, so they get retention raises all the time in the 5-10+% range without any outside offers. Meanwhile, the rest of the employees are in a 1.5-2% raise pool and told to go find an offer.

In Academia, it is often harder and more expensive to replace a top researcher, than a random dean or deanlet, but they still justify the opposite by hiring expensive search firms to fill a position they have 2-dozen qualified people on staff already who could do a better job than the existing person.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So, they waste 100's of thousands of dollars on a hiring process that isn't needed, just to go through the motions?

Sounds like they have a lot of extra money they could have used on their regular employees.

Let's be honest and tell it like it is. They do that for C+ level execs, because it is other C+ level execs making the decision, and they want their raises to look the same, and want an artificial firm (consulting companies) to justify that decision by making it look expensive to replace them...artificially increases their perceived value.

The same thing is done in Academia. Administrators aren't part of the regular raise pool, because "they're special" and hard to replace, so they get retention raises all the time in the 5-10+% range without any outside offers. Meanwhile, the rest of the employees are in a 1.5-2% raise pool and told to go find an offer.

In Academia, it is often harder and more expensive to replace a top researcher, than a random dean or deanlet, but they still justify the opposite by hiring expensive search firms to fill a position they have 2-dozen qualified people on staff already who could do a better job than the existing person.

Tell me you don't understand how compensation works without saying "I don't understand how compensation works."

[Skatastrophy]

So, they waste 100's of thousands of dollars on a hiring process that isn't needed, just to go through the motions?

Sounds like they have a lot of extra money they could have used on their regular employees.

Let's be honest and tell it like it is. They do that for C+ level execs, because it is other C+ level execs making the decision, and they want their raises to look the same, and want an artificial firm (consulting companies) to justify that decision by making it look expensive to replace them...artificially increases their perceived value.

The same thing is done in Academia. Administrators aren't part of the regular raise pool, because "they're special" and hard to replace, so they get retention raises all the time in the 5-10+% range without any outside offers. Meanwhile, the rest of the employees are in a 1.5-2% raise pool and told to go find an offer.

In Academia, it is often harder and more expensive to replace a top researcher, than a random dean or deanlet, but they still justify the opposite by hiring expensive search firms to fill a position they have 2-dozen qualified people on staff already who could do a better job than the existing person.

If I'm the one that has to go to jail when the company does something illegal, you better believe I'm going to get paid for it. In addition to raising money and handling media, and having to quarterback the company while managing your board?

I think that C-suite pay is inflated, but it's a risky challening career decision to fly that close to the sun.

[jesmu84]

If I'm the one that has to go to jail when the company does something illegal, you better believe I'm going to get paid for it. In addition to raising money and handling media, and having to quarterback the company while managing your board?

I think that C-suite pay is inflated, but it's a risky challening career decision to fly that close to the sun.

Is there a lot of evidence of C-suite folks going to jail for a company doing illegal things?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

If the ability to perform an executive job in health care or education is so understated, and the compensation is artificially inflated, then why don't more people do it?