Projo nojo

[MU82]

Not necessarily an argument for TJ from me here but why is our only option a “sure fire stud”?

Coaching searches inherently involve risk. I’m sure when Wright was hired at Nova he wasn’t recognized as a “sure fire stud”. Same with most other elite coaches when they were first hired.

At some point our program has to have the gumption to push our chips to the center and recognize that Wojo is not meeting the standard. As with Poker, you can check and call your way out of a game, without ever playing a hand.  That’s what we’re doing with Wojo now.  We must at least TRY for a different coach that may meet and exceed the standard this basketball program has.

I agree with you on most of this.

When the time comes to make a change - and though some Scoopers believe the time came years ago, the trustees are all that matter - we almost surely will not get some big-name hire. Though more than a few Scoopers claim that proven NCAA-tourney-game-winning coaches with totally clean reputations will be beating down the doors to coach at MU, I'll believe that when I see it.

We almost certainly will either get some program's top assistant (O'Neill, Crean, Wojo) or some non-P6-conference head coach (Dukiet, Deane), as we have for decades. (Buzz was unique, in that he was a guy who bounced around from program to program as an assistant, had one losing year as a low-level head coach, and then was an assistant at MU for one year before getting promoted. If we promoted a guy with that background now, Scoop probably would implode.)

We almost got Shaka, but even though he was a highly successful non-P6 coach, he still fit that profile. And we didn't get him.

Can TJO win at Marquette? Maybe, maybe not. I'd feel better about his chances if he could bring DJO with him!

Wardle? Makes sense for a lot of reasons. Who knows if he can win at this level, though?

But, as you said, unless a proven, NCAA-tourney-game-winning coach decides he wants to eat Leon's Frozen Custard every day, we almost certainly will not hire a "sure fire stud."

So it will be a roll of the dice. Maybe we'll get the next Buzz or KO or Crean; maybe we'll get the next Dukiet. But that fact shouldn't stop the BOT from making a change if warranted, and neither should the prospect of losing recruits or current players.

Those will be some interesting Scoop discussions when we actually have an opening. For better or worse (and it seems most feel "for worse"), that opening is highly unlikely to happen after this season.

[panda]

BLM was referring to Daum at SoDakST, not Hamilton at UNLV. He never mentioned Hamilton—you did. He mentioned Daum several times....and you keep suggesting that he said Hamilton.....which he did not.

Hand up - I’ll take a knee for reading too quickly and mistakenly thinking he was talking about UNLV.

Having said that, stepping in and taking a good team and at the BARE minimum, maintaining their status, is no reason to discredit a coach.

All while sticking up for another coach, who hasn’t come close to maintaining it’s program status...

[jesmu84]

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

[Lennys Tap]

Stu.

This made me smile.

[5DollarPitcher]

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

Um... yes? What is “slipping in” two Sweet Sixteen appearances?? Haha. That would literally be the difference between something and nothing in his tenure here.

“Slipped in 2 sweet sixteens” I’m literally laughing at you.

[Galway Eagle]

Um... yes? What is “slipping in” two Sweet Sixteen appearances?? Haha. That would literally be the difference between something and nothing in his tenure here.

“Slipped in 2 sweet sixteens” I’m literally laughing at you.

I think you once posted that you weren't in school for any success so I'll translate. There's a huge difference between the 2011 sweet 16 where we slipped in there after a frustrating season vs the 2012 sweet 16 where that was the floor for expectations.

I believe the hypothetical was if Wojo had a couple 2011 seasons (which he has regular season wise)

[5DollarPitcher]

I think you once posted that you weren't in school for any success so I'll translate. There's a huge difference between the 2011 sweet 16 where we slipped in there after a frustrating season vs the 2012 sweet 16 where that was the floor for expectations.

I believe the hypothetical was if Wojo had a couple 2011 seasons (which he has regular season wise)

If Wojo miraculously turned a couple of crummy seasons into a couple of absolving Sweet Sixteen appearances would we have a different perception of him? Likely. But the question itself is an irrelevant joke because that’s exactly what HASN’T happened.

If the Packers went to the Super Bowl the year McCarthy was fired would we have kept McCarthy? Umm probably but that didn’t happen so why would we begin to debate hypotheticals that give him credit for something like that?

It’s an awful take honestly.

[Lennys Tap]

Not when you lived it.
The stats guy is only needed for the argumentative guys who are detail focused.  You know, the lawyer types or engineers. 
I use google for something I don't know.
History lived is different from history studied.

Vogue

You lived it, but evidently the “fog of war” you like to talk about played games with your perceptions. Al McGuire inherited a program in shambles. We were 5-21 in 1962-63, the year before he took over. Contrary to your assertions, he did “hit the ground running”. Modest improvement in year one (8-18), major improvements in years two (14-12) and three (21-9, NIT runner up). Years 4-13 were “seashells and balloons”. Over that 10 year span we were 252-41 and finished in the top 10 in each of the final 9 years. We were invited to the dance in all of those 10 years. One year Al said no and we won the NIT title. In 9 NCAA tournaments appearances we had 1 first round loss, 4 S16s, 2 E8s and 2 FF (1 National runner up, 1 National Championship).

I lived it, too, Vogue. It wasn’t a slow recovery. It was a rocket ship. His first AA (George Thompson) arrived in year two, his second (Dean Meminger) in year four. The day The Dream announced for MU it sealed the deal. MU was going uptown - and what a trip it was!

[willie warrior]

Vogue

You lived it, but evidently the “fog of war” you like to talk about played games with your perceptions. Al McGuire inherited a program in shambles. We were 5-21 in 1962-63, the year before he took over. Contrary to your assertions, he did “hit the ground running”. Modest improvement in year one (8-18), major improvements in years two (14-12) and three (21-9, NIT runner up). Years 4-13 were “seashells and balloons”. Over that 10 year span we were 252-41 and finished in the top 10 in each of the final 9 years. We were invited to the dance in all of those 10 years. One year Al said no and we won the NIT title. In 9 NCAA tournaments appearances we had 1 first round loss, 4 S16s, 2 E8s and 2 FF (1 National runner up, 1 National Championship).

I lived it, too, Vogue. It wasn’t a slow recovery. It was a rocket ship. His first AA (George Thompson) arrived in year two, his second (Dean Meminger) in year four. The day The Dream announced for MU it sealed the deal. MU was going uptown - and what a trip it was!

Absolutely accurate, Lenny. Oh those were wondrous years orchestrated by the mad hatter, Al McGuire. One of a kind who some of us still remember with great fondness. For me, 3 stand out above all others. Al shedding a tear at the end of the NC win, winning the title; MU winning the NIT in 70 after rejecting the NCAA snub offer; and my favorite, Al standing on the table inciting the Whisky crowd with old man Hughes flipping him the bird.
Those were truly great times to be a Warrior fan
Al was one of a kind who put MU on the map of college basketball

[brewcity77]

It’s an awful take honestly.

Why? Teams slip into the Sweet 16 every year.

In 2019 it was Oregon, who got a favorable matchup with a similarly-paced Wisconsin team then were the benefactor of the rare 12/13 matchup in the second round. In 2018, it was the entire South regional, where Kansas State escaped an 8/9 game only to face a 16-seed, Kentucky held off Davidson before drawing a second-round 13-seed, Loyola-Chicago got back-to-back miracle finishes to escape the first weekend, and Nevada was dominated for most of both their first weekend games (beat Texas in OT, rallied from 22 down to beat 2-seed Cincy).

Xavier in 2017, Syracuse in 2016, UCLA in 2015, Dayton and Tennessee in 2014, La Salle and FGCU in 2013, Xavier in 2012, Marquette in 2011, and so on and so on. All it takes is an upset or two in the right places, drawing an overseeded team,

Sweet 16s shouldn't define a coach. You'd rather have them than not have them, but Final Fours and National Championships are worth hanging banners for. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are nice, but mediocre coaches back into them every year. Would they change our perception of Wojo? For some, sure. But for me, I don't think that's enough success, and there are enough red flags that have me convinced he's the wrong guy.

[4everwarriors]

Because Wardle is an alum, doesn't justify his hiring, hey?

[5DollarPitcher]

Why? Teams slip into the Sweet 16 every year.

In 2019 it was Oregon, who got a favorable matchup with a similarly-paced Wisconsin team then were the benefactor of the rare 12/13 matchup in the second round. In 2018, it was the entire South regional, where Kansas State escaped an 8/9 game only to face a 16-seed, Kentucky held off Davidson before drawing a second-round 13-seed, Loyola-Chicago got back-to-back miracle finishes to escape the first weekend, and Nevada was dominated for most of both their first weekend games (beat Texas in OT, rallied from 22 down to beat 2-seed Cincy).

Xavier in 2017, Syracuse in 2016, UCLA in 2015, Dayton and Tennessee in 2014, La Salle and FGCU in 2013, Xavier in 2012, Marquette in 2011, and so on and so on. All it takes is an upset or two in the right places, drawing an overseeded team,

Sweet 16s shouldn't define a coach. You'd rather have them than not have them, but Final Fours and National Championships are worth hanging banners for. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are nice, but mediocre coaches back into them every year. Would they change our perception of Wojo? For some, sure. But for me, I don't think that's enough success, and there are enough red flags that have me convinced he's the wrong guy.

The difference is, 2 Sweet Sixteens would literally define Wojo’s tenure through 7 years should he have gone to them, regardless of whether they came from the 11 seed line or the 3 seed line.

He hasn’t done it and it’s been a huge problem. Therefore to use the phraseology “oh what if Wojo just slipped in a couple Sweet Sixteens??” is completely asinine and an embarrassing and dangerous game of mental gymnastics to denigrate one of the three main forms (NCAAT, conference, conference tourney) of tangible success a college basketball can possibly have.

And yeah I get that we weren’t explicitly propping up Wojo with these takes but let’s be honest - why else would we need to have this conversation if it weren’t to prop up Wojo.

It’s an awful take.

[brewcity77]

Because Wardle is an alum, doesn't justify his hiring, hey?

I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

[panda]

I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

I think it’s extremely important to make a long term hire in this spot as well. It’s hard to find for a program like MU (or 90% of other schools) to find a guy that makes their job, the destination job.

Wardle has had head coaching success at two different, difficult stops and one would think he wouldn’t use MU as a stepping stone. If the BOT and the university truly believes in their long term thinking, he’s a slam dunk.

[HutchwasClutch]

Why? Teams slip into the Sweet 16 every year.

In 2019 it was Oregon, who got a favorable matchup with a similarly-paced Wisconsin team then were the benefactor of the rare 12/13 matchup in the second round. In 2018, it was the entire South regional, where Kansas State escaped an 8/9 game only to face a 16-seed, Kentucky held off Davidson before drawing a second-round 13-seed, Loyola-Chicago got back-to-back miracle finishes to escape the first weekend, and Nevada was dominated for most of both their first weekend games (beat Texas in OT, rallied from 22 down to beat 2-seed Cincy).

Xavier in 2017, Syracuse in 2016, UCLA in 2015, Dayton and Tennessee in 2014, La Salle and FGCU in 2013, Xavier in 2012, Marquette in 2011, and so on and so on. All it takes is an upset or two in the right places, drawing an overseeded team,

Sweet 16s shouldn't define a coach. You'd rather have them than not have them, but Final Fours and National Championships are worth hanging banners for. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are nice, but mediocre coaches back into them every year. Would they change our perception of Wojo? For some, sure. But for me, I don't think that's enough success, and there are enough red flags that have me convinced he's the wrong guy.

Yes, teams and coaches slip their way into S16’s almost every year. Cuonzo Martin in 2014 being the poster boy of not getting carried away with one tournament run. But if you’re making these kind of runs consistently, you’ve got a bona fide big time coach running your program! Consistency being the operative word.  Mediocre coaches do not make those runs multiple times.  Buzz doing a 3 peat of S16’s took us back to near Al like levels.  Then he took a program like Va Tech that had never accomplished anything and did it there.  The guy can build a program and coach his guys up.

If Wojo would miraculously get us to 2,3 etc S16’s or E8’s, but fall short of Final Fours, of course perception of him among the fan base would change. One run alone, no.  But hanging your coaching hat on several runs such as those, and you’ve probably earned yourself being MU’s head coach until you decide you no longer want the job.

As Silent Verbal pointed out, Wojo will highly likely not even get the one off, if talent is equal or favors MU, Wojo’s incompetence will blow the chance.

[Galway Eagle]

Yes, teams and coaches slip their way into S16’s almost every year. Cuonzo Martin in 2014 being the poster boy of not getting carried away with one tournament run. But if you’re making these kind of runs consistently, you’ve got a bona fide big time coach running your program! Consistency being the operative word.  Mediocre coaches do not make those runs multiple times.  Buzz doing a 3 peat of S16’s took us back to near Al like levels.  Then he took a program like Va Tech that had never accomplished anything and did it there.  The guy can build a program and coach his guys up.

If Wojo would miraculously get us to 2,3 etc S16’s or E8’s, but fall short of Final Fours, of course perception of him among the fan base would change. One run alone, no.  But hanging your coaching hat on several runs such as those, and you’ve probably earned yourself being MU’s head coach until you decide you no longer want the job.

As Silent Verbal pointed out, Wojo will highly likely not even get the one off, if talent is equal or favors MU, Wojo’s incompetence will blow the chance.

You're right with steady runs. Of course St Johns had that same mindset when they hired Lavin.

[The Lens]

I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

You're starting to get me.  I have been Wardle hesitant bc though he was a Deane recruit, he is really a Crean disciple and he has some serious Crean genes. 

- Wins regulars season Championship but loses in conf tourney
- frenetic pacing up and down the court
- very coach speak

That said is last two years at Bradley have been tough tough to ignore.  The question should be, what's his Chicago AAU relationship? I would assume good but when gets to a real program can he call on that?  He was BFFs in HS with Cordell, Q & Dennis Gates.  If he can replicate that as a coach, we're fine.

All of that being said TJO works the gray like Buzz & Al.  It's not all black and white.  He knows where the rules are not so clear and how to color outside the lines just enough to win.  Very Buzz & Al like.  You need that at MU.  It is what have made us successful.       

[wadesworld]

If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

[vogue65]

I would be on board with Wardle now. I wouldn't have been when our job was last open. He has shown the ability to build two programs, has won conference titles (GB) and conference tourney titles (Bradley). He has won at different tempos.

But more than anything, Wardle has spent his career working to build a resume to put him in position to take THIS job. Wardle's time at Green Bay, his time at Bradley, all of that is to make him worth hiring for Marquette. No one out there has worked harder to get the Marquette job specifically, no one would value it more, and no one realistic will have a markedly better resume. There may be candidates like TJO or others that can be about on par, but we know Wardle's passion and we know he can build a program.

It isn't an obvious home run hire, but it would be the most proven head coaching hire made by Marquette certainly in my lifetime. I would say the most proven hire since Eddie Hickey in 1958.

Ah, Ed Hickey.
I roomed with two of his players.
They broke into a professors office to steel an exam.
Hush!
It was covered up, back page story if that.
They were then transfered off to another Jesuit University.
Hush!
Then Ed failed and in came big Al on his white horse from Belmont Abbey.
And the rest is history.
Al recruited in NYC, WOJO recruited in Wisconsin, it is as simple as that.
Now WOJO is recruiting in New Jersey,  Baltimore, Minnessota and the Big Ten, things are looking up.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops. Kenpom rankings for both UWGB and Bradley the years he was there:

UWGB: 158, 175, 126, 71, 71
Bradley: 323, 217, 124, 161, 107, 112 (currently)

What he's done at both UWGB and Bradley is impressive. I have no idea if it would translate to the high major level. This plus him being an alum (possibly meaning he won't treat MU as a stepping stone) would make him a candidate if the MU job were to open up. Of course, the BOT would have to get past poopgate.

[HutchwasClutch]

If people are so tired of mediocrity that we want Wojo gone, why in the world would we replace him with Wardle?  Because his team got hot at the right time in a mediocre (generous) conference torunament to sneak into the NCAA Tournament?  The Bradley teams he got into the NCAA Tournaments were 11-7 and 9-9 in the MVC.  In his 11th season, his overall record is 182-154 (.542), with no real experience recruiting to a high major.  Wojo's record at Marquette is 120-86 (.583).

I just don't get the logic people use.  Let's fire Wojo because he sucks, and hire a guy who's less successful at a lower level of basketball.

Conveniently ignoring what Bradley basketball was when Wardle took it over. Conveniently ignoring Wardle also winning a regular season conference at UWGB and turning that program into a top of the league program over his last 3 seasons there.  Ignoring little tradition, resources, facilities, fan base, etc. All of which Wojo of course enjoys huge advantages to anything Wardle’s ever  been blessed to have. 

So where is Wojo’s replacement supposed to come from?  What would you do if you’re running the show at MU?  Because you’re great at snarky comments without offering anything other than apparent blind admiration of Wojo.

[vogue65]

I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops. Kenpom rankings for both UWGB and Bradley the years he was there:

UWGB: 158, 175, 126, 71, 71
Bradley: 323, 217, 124, 161, 107, 112 (currently)

What he's done at both UWGB and Bradley is impressive. I have no idea if it would translate to the high major level. This plus him being an alum (possibly meaning he won't treat MU as a stepping stone) would make him a candidate if the MU job were to open up. Of course, the BOT would have to get past poopgate.

Yes, but.
History is only one indicator of future success.
Wardle might be a great coach, he may have a substantial resume, he may be a man of character, knowledge, intelect and experience and still fail.
So my question is, does a program transend a coach?
Is it all as simple as the coach?
Why?
The big salary?
We are really only talking about 7 kids +/- , a ball and a basket.

[HutchwasClutch]

I have no idea if Wardle would be successful or not, but the reason why people like what he has done is that he is improved the program at both of his stops. Kenpom rankings for both UWGB and Bradley the years he was there:

UWGB: 158, 175, 126, 71, 71
Bradley: 323, 217, 124, 161, 107, 112 (currently)

What he's done at both UWGB and Bradley is impressive. I have no idea if it would translate to the high major level. This plus him being an alum (possibly meaning he won't treat MU as a stepping stone) would make him a candidate if the MU job were to open up. Of course, the BOT would have to get past poopgate.

This is where I am on Wardle, except there’s some idea if he would be successful at MU because he has a track record of success at two programs that are difficult to win at.

[panda]

Conveniently ignoring what Bradley basketball was when Wardle took it over. Conveniently ignoring Wardle also winning a regular season conference at UWGB and turning that program into a top of the league program over his last 3 seasons there.  Ignoring little tradition, resources, facilities, fan base, etc. All of which Wojo of course enjoys huge advantages to anything Wardle’s ever  been blessed to have. 

So where is Wojo’s replacement supposed to come from?  What would you do if you’re running the show at MU?  Because you’re great at snarky comments without offering anything.

Exactly - Who else is banging on the door to take over this program for the long haul? All signs point to Wardle taking two "local" jobs that would prove himself one day as a great candidate at MU. He's won at both of those spots, which are no cake walks, and has turned himself into a great candidate. I wouldn't be on board if he had only been at UWGB for a couple seasons, but he's succeeded at two different programs already, as well as a career as an assistant.

[wadesworld]

Conveniently ignoring what Bradley basketball was when Wardle took it over. Conveniently ignoring Wardle also winning a regular season conference at UWGB and turning that program into a top of the league program over his last 3 seasons there.  Ignoring little tradition, resources, facilities, fan base, etc. All of which Wojo of course enjoys huge advantages to anything Wardle’s ever  been blessed to have. 

So where is Wojo’s replacement supposed to come from?  What would you do if you’re running the show at MU?  Because you’re great at snarky comments without offering anything.

I didn't conveniently ignore anything.  How far back in the history of a program should we go to credit or discredit a coach?  To where it's convenient enough to make a guy look attractive when he's really not?  We're talking like Bradley has long been one of the worst programs in college basketball history here.  That's not the reality.  Was Bradley awful the year before Wardle took over?  Yup.  Are they better now than they were that year?  Yup.  Guess who else was awful the year before a coach took over and is better now than they were that year?  MU.  Wardle has Bradley better than they were under their previous coach, but far worse than they were in the late 2000s.