Hydroxychloroquinine updates (and other potential treatments)

[ATL MU Warrior]

have not had a drink in 15 years jack

Maybe you should start up again. Might be the missing ingredient that will help you start making sense.

[Hards Alumni]

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizers-novel-covid-19-oral-antiviral-treatment-candidate


Hell yeah, more of this please.

[4everwarriors]

Always sed therapeutics ar da answer, hey?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Always sed therapeutics ar da answer, hey?

You've always been very prescient with your predictions of medicine and inoculation being the answer to this novel disease.  If only more people could have seen that those interventions would have been helpful....

[Galway Eagle]

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizers-novel-covid-19-oral-antiviral-treatment-candidate


Hell yeah, more of this please.

I it's a combination of horse paste and anti malaria drugs

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Always sed therapeutics ar da answer, hey?

Heard the President of MCW speak the other day.  He said that our current therapeutics are decent, but not great.  He did say there was some promise on the horizon with a Tamiflu like equivalent but it was hardly a grand slam.

Finally, he also said that currently what's the best way to combat Covid are vaccines and social actions like masking and distancing.  And called these vaccines a medical miracle that are not experimental, didn't cut any serious corners, and are going to open the door for future vaccinations down the line.

He also believes that coronaviruses with spike protiens can only have so many variants, so we may be out of the woods and into endemic stage next calendar year.  But admitted that not everyone agrees with him.

Follow the science.

[MUfan12]

He also believes that coronaviruses with spike protiens can only have so many variants, so we may be out of the woods and into endemic stage next calendar year.  But admitted that not everyone agrees with him.

Follow the science.

A good way to make sure this is the case would be to get the rest of the world some of our vaccine supply.

But I largely agree with him, from everything I've read. Now that the kids are eligible, I think we're hopefully seeing the crisis stage of this finally end.

[Hards Alumni]

Always sed therapeutics ar da answer, hey?

Awfully naive to assume the folks who won't get a vaccine jump at the chance to down a pill that is just as experimental and is created by big pharma.  They may beg for it when they're really sick, but it hasn't been tested on the really sick.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Awfully naive to assume the folks who won't get a vaccine jump at the chance to down a pill that is just as experimental and is created by big pharma.  They may beg for it when they're really sick, but it hasn't been tested on the really sick.

All depends on what right wing media tells them. See Vaccine vs. Monoclonal Antibodies.

Pretending to be anti-vax while being themselves vaccinated is intended to cause as much chaos and discontent as possible in order to regain political power.  And of course it is working because they can count on their followers to swallow anything they are told. (War on Christmas! Migrant caravans! Transgender bathrooms! MS-13! Critical Race Theory!)

However, it does kills their constituents. Their calculus is that the benefit of ginning up their base outweighs the cost of a few hundred thousand extra dead voters. But, monoclonal anti-bodies are a nice way to have their cake and eat it too. So, I predict they will be in favor of the new anti-viral pills as well.

[4everwarriors]

C'mon outta ur act, T-Squared, hey?

[Skatastrophy]

Rogers took Ivermectin on the advice of his "good friend" Joe Rogan.

You can't make this crap up.

Thankfully he's rich enough that he can throw money at the problem so Rogers will be fine. Sadly there are a lot of people that aren't too smart and look up to Rogers and will die because of his stupidity.

Hopefully the NFL nuts up and ends this dude's season.

[rocket surgeon]

All depends on what right wing media tells them. See Vaccine vs. Monoclonal Antibodies.

Pretending to be anti-vax while being themselves vaccinated is intended to cause as much chaos and discontent as possible in order to regain political power.  And of course it is working because they can count on their followers to swallow anything they are told. (War on Christmas! Migrant caravans! Transgender bathrooms! MS-13! Critical Race Theory!)

However, it does kills their constituents. Their calculus is that the benefit of ginning up their base outweighs the cost of a few hundred thousand extra dead voters. But, monoclonal anti-bodies are a nice way to have their cake and eat it too. So, I predict they will be in favor of the new anti-viral pills as well.

   so your pravda networks have been sooo right on all along?  you've got to be kidding me squared t...remind me what the ratings are again??  please tell me you've at least come around to the fact that natural immunity is way more effective than the vax.  let's start there.  btw, your angry lefty rants are embarrassing and leave the scientific stuff to us big boys so you can get back to your fascinating gender diversity equity and inclusion studies 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

   so your pravda networks have been sooo right on all along?  you've got to be kidding me squared t...remind me what the ratings are again??  please tell me you've at least come around to the fact that natural immunity is way more effective than the vax.  let's start there.  btw, your angry lefty rants are embarrassing and leave the scientific stuff to us big boys so you can get back to your fascinating gender diversity equity and inclusion studies 

You gonna comment on the speech from the President of MCW?  Cause he's a scientist who dunked on pretty much anything you have said in this topic.

[Uncle Rico]

   so your pravda networks have been sooo right on all along?  you've got to be kidding me squared t...remind me what the ratings are again??  please tell me you've at least come around to the fact that natural immunity is way more effective than the vax.  let's start there.  btw, your angry lefty rants are embarrassing and leave the scientific stuff to us big boys so you can get back to your fascinating gender diversity equity and inclusion studies

10 of 10

Where to begin?  Great use of pravda.  The lack of irony is incredible but greatly appreciated.  Leaving the science to the big boys is brilliant, especially after what you wrote about natural immunity and the vaccine.  I should dock you for not including CRT on the end but that would be picking nits.  Honestly, Marquette should make this post their new motto. 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

   so your pravda networks have been sooo right on all along?  you've got to be kidding me squared t...remind me what the ratings are again??  please tell me you've at least come around to the fact that natural immunity is way more effective than the vax.  let's start there.  btw, your angry lefty rants are embarrassing and leave the scientific stuff to us big boys so you can get back to your fascinating gender diversity equity and inclusion studies

Oh god. This has to be an 11 out of 10. The incorrect information, the lack of self awareness...magnificent.

[rocket surgeon]

You gonna comment on the speech from the President of MCW?  Cause he's a scientist who dunked on pretty much anything you have said in this topic.

i haven't seen dr john raymond's speech but i can cite many other observations and studies regarding the vaccine vs the natural immunity developed following exposure to and/or recovery from covid.  the problem here is so many disagree with the sources of the information provided.  let's start with the NIH-

  if you could provide a link to doc raymond's speech i'd appreciate that and a you tube of him dunking anything would be great too

   https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

            although i struggle sometimes with the NIH and the CDC as a whole, i think we can all agree this is can be a safe reference for our intents and purposes here.  nothing is set in stone.  obviously the responses to a vaccine and the development of a natural immunity are going to vary.  however, understanding how our bodies develop a natural immunity to anything in general just makes sense.  one doesn't need to be a doctor to understand this, but having a background in cell, micro and immunology helps.  forget can get pretty deep here as well as many others. "peer" reviewed studies are difficult to come by here because-1) we are still learning about this virus, it's mutations and it's affects on the populace in general.  this is going to be a years and years long process where you are going to see previously held beliefs go by the wayside like bad habits and 2) this thing has been polarized way too much and the "follow the money" thing is too hard to overcome.  everyone wants to be the first to "save the world" and along with that unfortunately comes power. 

one good old fashioned reference for natural immunity-eating a pound of dirt...

   back to the immune response thing- 
               our bodies, upon recovery from an illness, develop so many more responses against the whole viral particle as opposed to just the spike proteins.  the other parts of the viral particle-the viral envelope proteins and probably most importantly the RNA and nucleoproteins are not affected by the vaccines.  when one gets sick and recovers, our bodies develop varying degrees of defense. by that i mean the numbers of B-cells, killer and helper T-cells and the associated CD4 and CD8 cells produced will vary in each individual and correspondingly, the duration and the quality of the immunity.   

the reason for this is because the vaccine only contains the mRNA to produce the spike proteins which our bodies then form the B and T cells needed to recognize as foreign and harmful.  the first thing our bodies recognize upon introduction into our bodies are the spike proteins. 

if our bodies become overwhelmed and/or there are other compromised health issues leading to a compromised immune response and all we have for defense is a vaccine trained to recognize only the spike proteins, it leaves many other viral particles to have their way and run rampant. 

  we are still learning more about why some people get more sick than others and/or die.  why do some still get covid after receiving the vaccine.  what are the commodities and how they affect recoveries or lead to deaths.

bottom line, in a normal healthy individual, a naturally developed immunity is superior to an artificially developed one.     

[forgetful]

i haven't seen dr john raymond's speech but i can cite many other observations and studies regarding the vaccine vs the natural immunity developed following exposure to and/or recovery from covid.  the problem here is so many disagree with the sources of the information provided.  let's start with the NIH-

  if you could provide a link to doc raymond's speech i'd appreciate that and a you tube of him dunking anything would be great too

   https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

            although i struggle sometimes with the NIH and the CDC as a whole, i think we can all agree this is can be a safe reference for our intents and purposes here.  nothing is set in stone.  obviously the responses to a vaccine and the development of a natural immunity are going to vary.  however, understanding how our bodies develop a natural immunity to anything in general just makes sense.  one doesn't need to be a doctor to understand this, but having a background in cell, micro and immunology helps.  forget can get pretty deep here as well as many others. "peer" reviewed studies are difficult to come by here because-1) we are still learning about this virus, it's mutations and it's affects on the populace in general.  this is going to be a years and years long process where you are going to see previously held beliefs go by the wayside like bad habits and 2) this thing has been polarized way too much and the "follow the money" thing is too hard to overcome.  everyone wants to be the first to "save the world" and along with that unfortunately comes power. 

one good old fashioned reference for natural immunity-eating a pound of dirt...

   back to the immune response thing- 
               our bodies, upon recovery from an illness, develop so many more responses against the whole viral particle as opposed to just the spike proteins.  the other parts of the viral particle-the viral envelope proteins and probably most importantly the RNA and nucleoproteins are not affected by the vaccines.  when one gets sick and recovers, our bodies develop varying degrees of defense. by that i mean the numbers of B-cells, killer and helper T-cells and the associated CD4 and CD8 cells produced will vary in each individual and correspondingly, the duration and the quality of the immunity.   

the reason for this is because the vaccine only contains the mRNA to produce the spike proteins which our bodies then form the B and T cells needed to recognize as foreign and harmful.  the first thing our bodies recognize upon introduction into our bodies are the spike proteins. 

if our bodies become overwhelmed and/or there are other compromised health issues leading to a compromised immune response and all we have for defense is a vaccine trained to recognize only the spike proteins, it leaves many other viral particles to have their way and run rampant. 

  we are still learning more about why some people get more sick than others and/or die.  why do some still get covid after receiving the vaccine.  what are the commodities and how they affect recoveries or lead to deaths.

bottom line, in a normal healthy individual, a naturally developed immunity is superior to an artificially developed one.  

While we ultimately disagree on the bolded line (and then some of the details related to it above), largely because of both some of the published literature regarding COVID, but also some of the lengthier literature on the development of the SARS (and from it SARS-COV2) vaccines, I think it is only fair to say that this is a well written post.

This looks more like how we disagree on things in science and then move forward as a group when more data comes out.

I'll also note that there is lengthy literature precedence indicating vaccine induced immunity is superior to natural infection in a wide variety of illnesses.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

But again, the natural immunity is better than vaccination is an illogical viewpoint.  Natural immunity requires you to catch Covid.  Why would you catch Covid to prevent getting Covid?

[forgetful]

But again, the natural immunity is better than vaccination is an illogical viewpoint.  Natural immunity requires you to catch Covid.  Why would you catch Covid to prevent getting Covid?

100% agreed.

Separate point. For those interested in a general commentary on why vaccines can provide a more durable and robust immune response. This fairly basic and short article covers the high points. One key aspect is the tunability of vaccines to provide the optimal response. The SARS-COV2 vaccines were built on all the tuning data observed over the last 18 years we have been developing a SARS vaccine.

https://theconversation.com/why-a-vaccine-can-provide-better-immunity-than-an-actual-infection-145476

[rocket surgeon]

100% agreed.

Separate point. For those interested in a general commentary on why vaccines can provide a more durable and robust immune response. This fairly basic and short article covers the high points. One key aspect is the tunability of vaccines to provide the optimal response. The SARS-COV2 vaccines were built on all the tuning data observed over the last 18 years we have been developing a SARS vaccine.

https://theconversation.com/why-a-vaccine-can-provide-better-immunity-than-an-actual-infection-145476

in response to "why would you catch covid to prevent getting covid"?  let's be realistic here-not many people purposely infect themselves although some have, but it is not a preferred method to obtain immunity.  as most of us well know, people do randomly get sick from normal day to day interactions out in the public.  they develop a natural immunity with varying degrees oif efficacy depending on many things including the health and genetics of the person infected.

i understand the vaccine can promote a more specific, controlled response sans the getting sick part, but once again, only to specific aspects of the viral particle introduced.  using the covid virus for example, as i have mentioned, the RNA to develop the spike proteins is used.  therefore, our bodies only recognize the spike proteins leaving the other parts of the virus to have it's way.  if the mode of delivery of covid vax were to the nose and/or throat, i might sway my opinion from an efficacy standpoint somewhat.  i still struggle with the narrow scope of the vaccine compared to our own body's elicited response to the whole particle

  the article you reference is very good, but with all due respect forget( as i know you know your chit probably better than most here) it doesn't prove why the covid vaccine specifically contributes to a more robust, longer lasting immunity than the one that we develop ourselves.  it does a nice job using the hpv as an example, but i believe the covid virus is a little bit different in what it presents to our bodies as i mentioned in my previous post 

so i present my reference to support why/how i believe an immune response developed post covid infection is a little better.  some will cite that the reason this is touted is because of the "anti vaxers".   i am not an anti vaxer as i am vaccinated myself.  i however respect the sentiment of others who for whatever reason, do not want the vaccine.  if people would take care of themselves(vax, mask, shield, quarantine, observe all sanitary precautions, etc...), they should have little to worry about


https://www.theburningplatform.com/2021/10/21/81-research-studies-confirm-natural-immunity-to-covid-equal-or-superior-to-vaccine-immunity/

 

[pbiflyer]

You cannot make this stuff up. We are living in The Onion.

Doctors meet in Ocala to discuss COVID-19 immunity, alternative treatments, ivermectin

An alternative message of COVID-19 vaccinations and treatments to that of government agencies came through loud and clear at a Saturday summit at which doctors who dispute the data, mandates and other actions were greeted with standing ovations.

The Florida Summit on COVID was held at the World Equestrian Center in Ocala and included doctors from throughout the U.S. who discussed the vaccines, natural immunity in those who previously had the virus, vaccine mandates and related topics.


https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/state/2021/11/06/doctors-meet-ocala-discuss-alternative-covid-19-choices/6271623001/

[ATL MU Warrior]

You cannot make this stuff up. We are living in The Onion.

Doctors meet in Ocala to discuss COVID-19 immunity, alternative treatments, ivermectin

An alternative message of COVID-19 vaccinations and treatments to that of government agencies came through loud and clear at a Saturday summit at which doctors who dispute the data, mandates and other actions were greeted with standing ovations.

The Florida Summit on COVID was held at the World Equestrian Center in Ocala and included doctors from throughout the U.S. who discussed the vaccines, natural immunity in those who previously had the virus, vaccine mandates and related topics.


https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/state/2021/11/06/doctors-meet-ocala-discuss-alternative-covid-19-choices/6271623001/

Aside from the obvious humor of choosing an equestrian facility to host this, you just know it's a world class event when it's held in Ocala FL.

[forgetful]

in response to "why would you catch covid to prevent getting covid"?  let's be realistic here-not many people purposely infect themselves although some have, but it is not a preferred method to obtain immunity.  as most of us well know, people do randomly get sick from normal day to day interactions out in the public.  they develop a natural immunity with varying degrees oif efficacy depending on many things including the health and genetics of the person infected.

i understand the vaccine can promote a more specific, controlled response sans the getting sick part, but once again, only to specific aspects of the viral particle introduced.  using the covid virus for example, as i have mentioned, the RNA to develop the spike proteins is used.  therefore, our bodies only recognize the spike proteins leaving the other parts of the virus to have it's way.  if the mode of delivery of covid vax were to the nose and/or throat, i might sway my opinion from an efficacy standpoint somewhat.  i still struggle with the narrow scope of the vaccine compared to our own body's elicited response to the whole particle

  the article you reference is very good, but with all due respect forget( as i know you know your chit probably better than most here) it doesn't prove why the covid vaccine specifically contributes to a more robust, longer lasting immunity than the one that we develop ourselves.  it does a nice job using the hpv as an example, but i believe the covid virus is a little bit different in what it presents to our bodies as i mentioned in my previous post 

so i present my reference to support why/how i believe an immune response developed post covid infection is a little better.  some will cite that the reason this is touted is because of the "anti vaxers".   i am not an anti vaxer as i am vaccinated myself.  i however respect the sentiment of others who for whatever reason, do not want the vaccine.  if people would take care of themselves(vax, mask, shield, quarantine, observe all sanitary precautions, etc...), they should have little to worry about


https://www.theburningplatform.com/2021/10/21/81-research-studies-confirm-natural-immunity-to-covid-equal-or-superior-to-vaccine-immunity/

Thanks for the link. Although I haven't read all 81 studies in that link, the main ones I've seen saying natural is better than the vaccine have significant flaws, largely because it is impossible to do a good well controlled study on this topic. In my opinion, from what I've seen (they don't publish all their details), the CDC report is the closest to a well controlled study I've seen.

The main issues of the studies are intrinsic biases based on different populations behavior, and likelihood of seeking testing after exhibiting symptoms. All the data in most of these studies is retrospective, looking at patient records after the fact.

Still, most of my current assessment on efficacy of vaccine or infection stems from the 18-years of study on SARS vaccines.

You make a good point regarding potential differences due to full virus vs. a fragment. If these vaccines were the first attempt at immunization, I'd be more in line with you. But they've done 18-years of research on full-virus inoculation, and different genes, or gene fragments, some in combination. The final one we are using shows the most robust immune response. Almost all other combinations demonstrated Th2 immunopathologies following a subsequent infections. These are bad. Faulty Th2 type responses are what lead to severe and potentially fatal COVID cases.

Further, many of these other genes are blind to neutralizing antibodies. So the vaccines are proven to be optimized to generate the most robust Th1 and neutralizing antibody response, which would be superior to natural infection.

Where I'd be willing to meet you in the middle, is that this doesn't yet necessarily mean that the vaccines as constructed would be superior to a natural infection. What has been currently optimized is that the immune response is similar or greater to the average natural infection. We do not have a ton of data on different dosing regimes. This is why we might see boosters.

What I think is pretty definitive, is that even with the 2-dose regime, the vaccines at least provide an equal (likely better) immunoprotection than natural illness, and as we optimize the dosing, it will only get better.

If you are interested in the topic, I encourage you to read up on some the old literature on development of different SARS vaccines.

I'm not saying this is a good link (the author is biased to some of the research saying the N-protein is a good candidate; they ignore the data showing it causes a Th2 type T-cell response), but it does have a lot of information, and like most science papers needs to be weighed against a lot of other papers to determine where the authors personal biases lie. Maybe, as we modify things further we can find a way to get N-protein fragments to only follow a Th1 response, and then further optimize an already great vaccine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7177048/

[forgetful]

One other quick comment for related to other possible gene targets. The Th1 vs. Th2 type responses is really important for disease severity.

Most severe COVID cases are really two phases, first phase of primary infection, and in severe cases a second immune-system driven event. The second phase is what can be fatal/severe.

What differentiates the two phases is intimately linked to the immune response and ultimately vaccine design. In the primary phase of infection you have initial infection of cells and rapid replication. During this phase, the surface of the viral capsid is the only thing exposed to the immune system. Blocking initial infection is achieved through neutralizing antibodies. These are primarily against the spike protein. The N-protein is not exposed and cannot generate neutralizing antibodies. So it is pointless in this phase.

In a second phase, the immune system is now destroying some of the virus. This leads to immune system exposure to other genes/protein elements, such as the N-protein. This "clearing virus" stage is heavily dependent on T-cell responses for SARS-like viruses, these can be type 1 (Th1) or type 2 (Th2). For respiratory viruses we know we need/want Th1, and Th2 leads to lung pathologies that often lead to hospitalization and death. In older individuals, or in those with certain pre-existing conditions, for some reason a Th2 type response can be more common. And it can happen at random to anyone of any age.

We do not want these Th2 responses in a respiratory disease, or vaccine. We can't really control which response happens in clearing a natural infection, but we can control it with vaccines.

[jesmu84]

Natural vs vaccine immunity is a stupid discussion and only seeks to distract