Markus & Joey

[jsglow]

During the timeout, 3 or 4 players were around Joey encouraging him.  Wojo pushed everyone away, and spent about 10 seconds talking to Joey as Joey was just nodding yes to everything that was said.  Both Nelson and Johnson were in his ear again leading out of the timeout.  This team seems to be in great hands.

Wojo and his teammates will make Joey a great player.  He's not there yet and for the first time in his life he's far from the best player on the court and the frustration set in.  The next stage in his development will come this summer where he's going to be made to work his arse off.  But I hope for his sake he can get a little hot now.  Be nice for him to get some swagger going into the Tourney.

[jesmu84]

During the timeout, 3 or 4 players were around Joey encouraging him.  Wojo pushed everyone away, and spent about 10 seconds talking to Joey as Joey was just nodding yes to everything that was said.  Both Nelson and Johnson were in his ear again leading out of the timeout.  This team seems to be in great hands.

Mind games

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Does it, though?  I rarely ever hear anyone discuss a team's free throw percentage.  With very rare exception, the only time free throw shooting is brought up is when it costs a team an individual game, in which case the free throw shooting very, very much mattered.  I hardly ever hear people discussing free throw percentage when talking about who could win a national title, who the favorite to win a certain conference are, when breaking down a matchup, etc.

So in reality, the only people really bringing up team season long free throw shooting percentages are those that cry about free throws not mattering...

You just made my point for me. FTs almost never cost a team the game, fans just think they do. Shooting an improved FT% in a game likely means 1 or 2 extra points. There are extreme situations where it is more, but not in most games. Shooting a better eFG%, or preventing your opponent from shooting a better eFG% are going to result in a lot more extra points,  same with OR%, TO%, and FTR. We just focus on the free throws because we think they should be automatic.

[CrowdOf5]

You just made my point for me. FTs almost never cost a team the game, fans just think they do. Shooting an improved FT% in a game likely means 1 or 2 extra points. There are extreme situations where it is more, but not in most games. Shooting a better eFG%, or preventing your opponent from shooting a better eFG% are going to result in a lot more extra points,  same with OR%, TO%, and FTR. We just focus on the free throws because we think they should be automatic.

I think Memphis lost a National Championship to Kansas because they couldn’t ice the game with free throws.

[KampusFoods]

Day 2 of a week-long break and we're already on #FTsNoMatta.... I'm out. See you all on Wednesday.

[The Thing]

I feel like we have had at least 3 close games this season we won that could have turned out as losses if we were a poorer free throw shooting team.

I really love having Sam, Joey, and Markus at crunch time getting fouled and going to the line. You can disagree but I believe FTs do matta!

[wadesworld]

You just made my point for me. FTs almost never cost a team the game, fans just think they do. Shooting an improved FT% in a game likely means 1 or 2 extra points. There are extreme situations where it is more, but not in most games. Shooting a better eFG%, or preventing your opponent from shooting a better eFG% are going to result in a lot more extra points,  same with OR%, TO%, and FTR. We just focus on the free throws because we think they should be automatic.

But every time people say "#freethrowsmatta" when a team loses a game by 3 following a 5-16 performance from the free throw line, the "#freethrowsnomatta" crowd comes crying and screaming about "that's not what #freethrowsnomatta."  So now we're changing the definition of "#freethrowsnomatta."

There's a reason that the highest team field goal percentage in the country is 52.8% while the lowest team free throw percentage in the country is 56.7%.  Only 6 teams shoot under 62% from the free throw line while only 5 teams shoot over 50% on overall field goals.  One shot is significantly easier to make, so when you shoot 5-16 from the line in a game you lost by 3, sure you could've hit 2 of the 3 pointers you missed and won the game, but that's much harder to do than to go 9-16 from the line instead of 5-16 from the line.  Free throws can absolutely cost a team an individual game and that's the only time, other than when people cry that team season free throw percentage doesn't matter, anyone really brings up free throw percentage.  Again, nobody talks about a team's season free throw percentage when discussing an upcoming matchup, when discussing why a team should be good (or bad) in a season preview, when projecting standings in a conference or NCAA Tournament results, etc.  So the only people who obsess over that stat are the ones crying for free throws not mattering.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think Memphis lost a National Championship to Kansas because they couldn’t ice the game with free throws.

No, they lost that game because they shot a putrid 45.2 eFG% while Kansas shot a respectable 55.5 eFG%. Only reason Memphis had a chance to miss those FTs was because they beat Kansas on the offensive glass, in the turnover battle, and in getting to the line more often.

[warriorchick]

I'm way more interested in FT defense.

Of which, I must say, our opponents are doing a terrible job.

[GooooMarquette]

No, they lost that game because they shot a putrid 45.2 eFG% while Kansas shot a respectable 55.5 eFG%. Only reason Memphis had a chance to miss those FTs was because they beat Kansas on the offensive glass, in the turnover battle, and in getting to the line more often.

So if Memphis had hit their FTs at the end, they still wouldn't have won?

[Galway Eagle]

remember the old adage that statistics mean nothing to the individual. I feel like no matter what the anti free throw crowd can fall back on this.

[wadesworld]

So if Memphis had hit their FTs at the end, they still wouldn't have won?

Correct.  Anyone who says that a ref can't cost a team a game is kidding themselves.  If after 39 minutes and 59 seconds one team had a lead and the refs made a bad call to give their opponent the win, a ref absolutely cost a team the game.

Say, for example, there's proof somewhere out there that the ball was still in Sam's hand when the buzzer went off at Creighton.  Then the refs absolutely cost Creighton the game.  Sure, theoretically Creighton could've gotten a stop every single time down the court on defense and gotten a 4 point play every single time down the court offensively and won like 300-0 and then the refs made that one mistake to make the final score 300-3 and it wouldn't have mattered.  But the reality is IF (this is just an example) Sam still had the ball in his hand when the buzzer went off and the refs missed it, the refs cost them the game.  It would've/should've been game over, Creighton wins by 3.  Instead Marquette won in overtime.

Refs can cost teams the game.  Missed free throws can cost teams the game.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But every time people say "#freethrowsmatta" when a team loses a game by 3 following a 5-16 performance from the free throw line, the "#freethrowsnomatta" crowd comes crying and screaming about "that's not what #freethrowsnomatta."  So now we're changing the definition of "#freethrowsnomatta."

There's a reason that the highest team field goal percentage in the country is 52.8% while the lowest team free throw percentage in the country is 56.7%.  Only 6 teams shoot under 62% from the free throw line while only 5 teams shoot over 50% on overall field goals.  One shot is significantly easier to make, so when you shoot 5-16 from the line in a game you lost by 3, sure you could've hit 2 of the 3 pointers you missed and won the game, but that's much harder to do than to go 9-16 from the line instead of 5-16 from the line.  Free throws can absolutely cost a team an individual game and that's the only time, other than when people cry that team season free throw percentage doesn't matter, anyone really brings up free throw percentage.  Again, nobody talks about a team's season free throw percentage when discussing an upcoming matchup, when discussing why a team should be good (or bad) in a season preview, when projecting standings in a conference or NCAA Tournament results, etc.  So the only people who obsess over that stat are the ones crying for free throws not mattering.

The definition of #FTNoMatta has never changed. It is short for #TeamFT%MattasVeryLittleWhenDeterminingWhoWinsaBasketballGame.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So if Memphis had hit their FTs at the end, they still wouldn't have won?

No and no one said that.

Correct.  Anyone who says that a ref can't cost a team a game is kidding themselves.  If after 39 minutes and 59 seconds one team had a lead and the refs made a bad call to give their opponent the win, a ref absolutely cost a team the game.

Say, for example, there's proof somewhere out there that the ball was still in Sam's hand when the buzzer went off at Creighton.  Then the refs absolutely cost Creighton the game.  Sure, theoretically Creighton could've gotten a stop every single time down the court on defense and gotten a 4 point play every single time down the court offensively and won like 300-0 and then the refs made that one mistake to make the final score 300-3 and it wouldn't have mattered.  But the reality is IF (this is just an example) Sam still had the ball in his hand when the buzzer went off and the refs missed it, the refs cost them the game.  It would've/should've been game over, Creighton wins by 3.  Instead Marquette won in overtime.

Refs can cost teams the game.  Missed free throws can cost teams the game.

Why is your example 300-0? All Creighton had to do was make one more shot or stop us from making one more shot to avoid the ref "costing them the game."

If your definition of "cost us the game" is any negative thing that happened during a game, no matter how important, than yes everything can cost you the game. You may want to focus on the 7th or 8th most significant thing that cost a team the game, I will focus my energy on the most significant ones.

[wadesworld]

No and no one said that.

Why is your example 300-0? All Creighton had to do was make one more shot or stop us from making one more shot to avoid the ref "costing them the game."

If your definition of "cost us the game" is any negative thing that happened during a game, no matter how important, than yes everything can cost you the game. You may want to focus on the 7th or 8th most significant thing that cost a team the game, I will focus my energy on the most significant ones.

I couldn't care less where you're focusing your energy.  It takes me no energy whatsoever to realize that if the final call of a game is incorrect and it changed the outcome of a game (like Sam's 3 for Creighton if the ball was still in his hands) then the refs changed the outcome of the game, and it's really not even a debate.  What actually happened should've resulted in a Creighton win in that situation but did not, vs. what could have happened.  One is theoretical, the other is reality.

[Galway Eagle]

I couldn't care less where you're focusing your energy.  It takes me no energy whatsoever to realize that if the final call of a game is incorrect and it changed the outcome of a game (like Sam's 3 for Creighton if the ball was still in his hands) then the refs changed the outcome of the game, and it's really not even a debate.  What actually happened should've resulted in a Creighton win in that situation but did not, vs. what could have happened.  One is theoretical, the other is reality.

Did Louisville's three being counted as a two cost them the game or no?

[wadesworld]

Did Louisville's three being counted as a two cost them the game or no?

Nope.  There would've been plenty of time for both teams to play differently down the stretch if the score was different from whatever period of time the incorrect call was made.

[GooooMarquette]

No and no one said that.

Ummmm...you said that.

MU03Grad said: "I think Memphis lost a National Championship to Kansas because they couldn’t ice the game with free throws."

Your response began with "No," clearly implying that the missed free throws played no role in causing the loss.

Play semantic games after the "no" all you want, but that says you don't believe the missed free throws cost them a NC.

Here's the reality: Statistics do not DETERMINE anything; the play on the court determines the outcome of every game. Statistics are just a shorthand way of SUMMARIZING what happened after the fact.

[MU82]

Wojo and his teammates will make Joey a great player.  He's not there yet and for the first time in his life he's far from the best player on the court and the frustration set in.  The next stage in his development will come this summer where he's going to be made to work his arse off.  But I hope for his sake he can get a little hot now.  Be nice for him to get some swagger going into the Tourney.

Totally agree with this. Very reasonable and pragmatic.

Here's the reality: Statistics do not DETERMINE anything; the play on the court determines the outcome of every game. Statistics are just a shorthand way of SUMMARIZING what happened after the fact.

Superbly stated.

[Cheeks]

No, they lost that game because they shot a putrid 45.2 eFG% while Kansas shot a respectable 55.5 eFG%. Only reason Memphis had a chance to miss those FTs was because they beat Kansas on the offensive glass, in the turnover battle, and in getting to the line more often.

Why can't it be both?  Shoot better eFG and shoot better FT's?  The issue I have with the #FTsNoMatta crowd is that it is just that, a FREE SHOT.  No one guarding you.  Every other shot in a game has a defender, or action going on....there is a resistance.  There is no resistance on a free throw...it is you shooting an uncontested shot.   To be able to shoot better FG% or more efficiently is easier said than done because the opposing team has a say in how difficult that will be. Not the case with free throws.

[MDMU04]

I think Memphis lost a National Championship to Kansas because they couldn’t ice the game with free throws.

Derrick Rose’s SAT test and his brother getting free travel to all the games would have retroactively had something to do with it too...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ummmm...you said that.

MU03Grad said: "I think Memphis lost a National Championship to Kansas because they couldn’t ice the game with free throws."

Your response began with "No," clearly implying that the missed free throws played no role in causing the loss.

Play semantic games after the "no" all you want, but that says you don't believe the missed free throws cost them a NC.

Here's the reality: Statistics do not DETERMINE anything; the play on the court determines the outcome of every game. Statistics are just a shorthand way of SUMMARIZING what happened after the fact.

That makes sense, I see what you are saying. The way I interpret "cost them the game" is "most important factor that led to them losing the game". Under that definition, I would argue that no is the correct answer. Your definition makes sense as well.

I also understand what you are saying in your last line but I see it differently.

[Galway Eagle]

Derrick Rose’s SAT test and his brother getting free travel to all the games would have retroactively had something to do with it too...

This, memphis never went to the championship

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Why can't it be both?  Shoot better eFG and shoot better FT's?  The issue I have with the #FTsNoMatta crowd is that it is just that, a FREE SHOT.  No one guarding you.  Every other shot in a game has a defender, or action going on....there is a resistance.  There is no resistance on a free throw...it is you shooting an uncontested shot.   To be able to shoot better FG% or more efficiently is easier said than done because the opposing team has a say in how difficult that will be. Not the case with free throws.

But it is not a free shot. If it was, they would just give you the points. The best FT shooting team in the country this season misses 20% of their free throws. On average teams miss 32% of their free throws.

I understand what you are saying, but all I and the others who say #FTsNoMatta are trying to point out is the impact of different stats on the game. Yes, team FT% can make an impact on a game. Just not nearly as much of an impact as other more significant stats.

The funny thing about the 2008 Memphis/KU example, Memphis only shot 59.6% from the free throw line that season. They shot 63.2% from the line that game, so above their average. If they had shot their average, they would have lost the game in regulation. Sure if they had an above average FT shooting night, they could have won the game. But if they have even a slightly below average night in eFG% or eFG% defense, they win the game by multiple possessions. The latter seems more significant to me, but the focus even 10 years later is still on missed FTs.

[buckchuckler]

You just made my point for me. FTs almost never cost a team the game, fans just think they do. Shooting an improved FT% in a game likely means 1 or 2 extra points. There are extreme situations where it is more, but not in most games. Shooting a better eFG%, or preventing your opponent from shooting a better eFG% are going to result in a lot more extra points,  same with OR%, TO%, and FTR. We just focus on the free throws because we think they should be automatic.

Whew, that's all?  Good thing that a point or two never matters in the outcome of the game. 

So is it your bold contention that being better on offense and defense will result in better basketball?  Huh.  That seems weird, not sure I buy that.

Has anyone ever said the FT% is the most important stat?  I have never heard that.  But they play a role in the game.  And in many cases, After everything else that happens in the game, sometimes it comes down to a guy hitting his free throws.  After all the eFG, and defense and rebounds, sometimes the game basically ends on the free throw line.  Situationally, they can certainly matter.  And to dismiss them out of hand seems like you are getting too caught up in the numbers and losing sight of what is actually happening in the game.