aaron hernandez

[MU82]

Lenny and Pakuni have provided solid evidence that brew (and I, by extension) overplayed his hand.

Nevertheless, IMHO, one war in the name of a higher power is one too many. And I think we all can agree that far too many people have died under the guise/cause of fighting for a higher power.

[brewcity77]

People may disagree with how the book classifies the causes of wars, at least on the margins.

But let me remind you or your initial patently false statement:

"What war DIDN"T start in the name of a higher power?...blah,blah, blah"

The correct answer, according to the article YOU cite, is most of them.

From your article: "The claim...that religion is solely responsible for wars is over simplistic rubbish" and "wars have always arisen, and arise today, from territorial disputes, military rivalries, conflicts of ethnicity, and striving for commercial and economic advantage, and they have always depended on, and depend upon today, pride, prejudice, coercion, envy, cupidity, envy, competitiveness and a sense of injustice" - IOW, the basic failings of human beings. Further on, "But for much of the world BEFORE THE 17TH CENTURY, these reasons for war were explained and justified, at least for the participants, by religion. Then around the middle of the 17th century, Europeans began to think of war as a legitimate means of furthering the interests of individual sovereigns." So 375 years ago religion as a reason for and a justification of war became basically extinct in much of the world.

So no, WWI wasn't a religious war. Nor was the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, WWII, the Korean War, Viet Nam, the Gulf War, Iraq or Afghanistan. Claiming that all wars start because of religion flat out, patently false. Until and unless you admit that fact, it's impossible to have a discussion on the subject.

I engaged in hyperbole, for that I apologize. The truth is religion is the main reason people have gone to war and the main reason people have died in those wars, but it is only one of many factors that actually started those wars (at least since the 18th century, before that virtually all wars were religious).

Saying religion is not behind wars, however, is patently false and you simply took an erroneous article that misinterpreted another writing and tried to use it to justify your inaccurate case.

World War I used religion on all sides to drive troops into battle and to increase fervor and support for the war. The Civil War came about largely because Southern Christians tried to use the Bible (story of Canaan) to justify them owning black slaves. World War II was religiously motivated on all sides but arguably Stalin, though Germany and the Vatican used Russia's lack of religion as a motivator and action justifier as well. (And need I mention 6 million Jews? Pretty sure they weren't targeted because of their stylish hats) Every foray we've made into the Middle East has demonized Muslims and the Qu'ran, and jihadist actions were the impetus that led to all our foreign retaliations and aggressions since 9/11.

I'll grant that in the past 250 years, religion didn't always start the fire, but far more often than not it was stoking the flames.

[Eldon]

As the old saying goes, 'when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail'

[MU82]

And need I mention 6 million Jews? Pretty sure they weren't targeted because of their stylish hats

I have a yarmulke that looks like a basketball. Haven't worn it in eons, but it's in this house of mine somewhere.

[keefe]

We'll see.  Last I checked, Newsweek was considered a pretty reputable news source.

I was raised with the Post and Newsweek. Back in the day, under Katherine Graham and Ben Bradley, the Post enterprise was responsible  reputable, and legitimate.

What is now called WaPo, unfortunately, is a disgrace to professional journalism. Bezos bought himself a bully pulpit which now lacks credibility or any semblance of an ethical standard.

Fish wrap, anyone?

[keefe]

The Encyclopedia of Wars (2008) chronicles 1763 wars throughout human history. 123 (7%) are considered "religious in nature". In 2013, The Institute for Economics and Peace looked at all the conflicts from that year. A total of 35 "wars" are listed. In 14 (40%), religion played no role at all. In 5 (14%) it was the main cause. Every one of the wars had multiple causes, the most common being opposition to a government's ideology or economic system (main cause in 67% of conflicts).

Your assertions make for great bumper stickers but don't stand up to scrutiny. The answer to "what war didn't start in the name of a higher power?" is the vast majority of them.

The world would be a lot more peaceful if regimes were not fanatical - like Iran (religious) and N Korea (atheist). Blaming the world's woes on religion (or lack of it) is fatuous.

Well said, Mr Bernstein. You beat me to it. This subject was part of the curricula at both Air Command and Staff College and the Air War College.

Fact is, even conflict cloaked in religious rhetoric is mostly about economic issues. Political power means one thing - economic well being. All the polemic is feel good moralism.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I have a yarmulke that looks like a basketball. Haven't worn it in eons, but it's in this house of mine somewhere.

Pix?

[Lennys Tap]

Well said, Mr Bernstein. You beat me to it. This subject was part of the curricula at both Air Command and Staff College and the Air War College.

Fact is, even conflict cloaked in religious rhetoric is mostly about economic issues. Political power means one thing - economic well being. All the polemic is feel good moralism.

Yo Crash - dead on. Wars are about a country's or a peoples' "stuff". I want yours, I perceive that you want mine, etc. Religion can be one of many things leaders who want to invade or defend use to dehumanize the enemy but it's really usually besides the point.

[MU82]

Pix?

If I can find it - a big freakin "if" - I absolutely will provide a pic.

[Sir Lawrence]

If I can find it - a big freakin "if" - I absolutely will provide a pic.

I've been meaning to ask you:  you have thoughtfully articulated that your moral compass is calibrated accurately without regard to any belief in a "higher power."  Do you think your upbringing, which I assume included bar mitzvah studies, provided you with the underpinnings of your moral belief system?  Truly just curious.

[MU82]

I've been meaning to ask you:  you have thoughtfully articulated that your moral compass is calibrated accurately without regard to any belief in a "higher power."  Do you think your upbringing, which I assume included bar mitzvah studies, provided you with the underpinnings of your moral belief system?  Truly just curious.

My upbringing absolutely provided me with the underpinnings of my moral belief system because I had fantastic parents and some very good role models, including my oldest brother. By the time I was Bar Mitzvah age, I already was barely Jewish in my mind and had pretty much decided that religion wasn't for me. I went through my Bar Mitzvah for my parents, who would have been disappointed if I hadn't.

My parents never said, "Do this because God would want you to" or "Be a good Jew and do so-and-so." In my family, there was never the equivalent of "You have to be good if you want to go to heaven." I was expected to do the right thing because it was the right thing. Period.

Now, I didn't always do the right thing. I messed up like every kid does. But I never worried about being punished by God, only about letting my parents down.

My kids were raised without religion. I think they are great kids, and I don't think they would change much about their upbringing. There was a lot of love in our home, and we are still very, very close to our kids even though we live far away from them now.

I happen to think religion is a fascinating subject and I like discussing it, as well as my lack thereof. It's interesting! I don't mind you asking at all.

I hope I didn't come across as claiming moral superiority in any of the above. I don't mean that to be snarky at all. Lenny said I occasionally come off that way, and I really don't mean to, so I will take his constructive criticism to heart. I have made plenty of mistakes, including a couple of whoppers that I am very ashamed of. But again, that shame has nothing to do with God or heaven or hell. It has to do with doing the right things instead of the wrong things.

[keefe]

From first hand observation men in the heat of combat reach out to two cultural icons - mom and God.

Coming to terms with one's mortality has men reach both to the known past and the uncertain future.

[keefe]

I engaged in hyperbole, for that I apologize. The truth is religion is the main reason people have gone to war and the main reason people have died in those wars, but it is only one of many factors that actually started those wars (at least since the 18th century, before that virtually all wars were religious).

Saying religion is not behind wars, however, is patently false and you simply took an erroneous article that misinterpreted another writing and tried to use it to justify your inaccurate case.

World War I used religion on all sides to drive troops into battle and to increase fervor and support for the war. The Civil War came about largely because Southern Christians tried to use the Bible (story of Canaan) to justify them owning black slaves. World War II was religiously motivated on all sides but arguably Stalin, though Germany and the Vatican used Russia's lack of religion as a motivator and action justifier as well. (And need I mention 6 million Jews? Pretty sure they weren't targeted because of their stylish hats) Every foray we've made into the Middle East has demonized Muslims and the Qu'ran, and jihadist actions were the impetus that led to all our foreign retaliations and aggressions since 9/11.

I'll grant that in the past 250 years, religion didn't always start the fire, but far more often than not it was stoking the flames.

You have a painfully unsophisticated understanding of armed conflict.

[4everwarriors]

My upbringing absolutely provided me with the underpinnings of my moral belief system because I had fantastic parents and some very good role models, including my oldest brother. By the time I was Bar Mitzvah age, I already was barely Jewish in my mind and had pretty much decided that religion wasn't for me. I went through my Bar Mitzvah for my parents, who would have been disappointed if I hadn't.

My parents never said, "Do this because God would want you to" or "Be a good Jew and do so-and-so." In my family, there was never the equivalent of "You have to be good if you want to go to heaven." I was expected to do the right thing because it was the right thing. Period.

Now, I didn't always do the right thing. I messed up like every kid does. But I never worried about being punished by God, only about letting my parents down.

My kids were raised without religion. I think they are great kids, and I don't think they would change much about their upbringing. There was a lot of love in our home, and we are still very, very close to our kids even though we live far away from them now.

I happen to think religion is a fascinating subject and I like discussing it, as well as my lack thereof. It's interesting! I don't mind you asking at all.

I hope I didn't come across as claiming moral superiority in any of the above. I don't mean that to be snarky at all. Lenny said I occasionally come off that way, and I really don't mean to, so I will take his constructive criticism to heart. I have made plenty of mistakes, including a couple of whoppers that I am very ashamed of. But again, that shame has nothing to do with God or heaven or hell. It has to do with doing the right things instead of the wrong things.

So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?

[Dr. Blackheart]

So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?

Bring 4ever back.

[tower912]

So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?

Are you OK?  Cogent, coherent, grammatically solid, not flippant.

[4everwarriors]

Ok, so here da thin' y'all. True confessions, I use dis board ta decompress, express my alter ego, act flippant, or just plane have sum fun. It's a fookin' chat board, nothin' more and certainly nothin' less. Wen I'm pissed or, in dis case, dead serious 'bout a serious topic, den y'all are likely ta see da erudite scholar dat I am. Problem lots of y'all have is first off, ya tink someone cares. Dey don't. Secondly, ya tink someone is gonna tink you're important, worldy, ultra bright, or just plane, da chit. Well, no one gives a rat's ass or if dey due, their ain't nothin' of significance goin' on in der life utterwise, ai na?

[keefe]

y'all are likely ta see da erudite scholar dat I am

Sure...Just like our former czar will categorically turn down all $400k an hour speaking gigs!!!

Just kidding, Doc! Keep givin' em hell!!!

[MU82]

So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?

Great questions, and I even understand them!

Well, I went to a Catholic college, so my parents had to be pretty prepared for me to date outside the religion and even to find a mate outside the religion. My father, who grew less and less sure of God's existence as he got older, was immediately accepting of my wife; my mother, who was raised Orthodox as a little girl, was disappointed at first. Once my mom got to know my wife-to-be a little bit, she realized my future spouse was (and still is) a wonderful person and my mom fell in love with her.

Ironically (or maybe coincidentally), my brothers who married Jews - and never would have married gentiles - have both been divorced. Meanwhile, my mixed marriage is nearing its 34rd anniversary. Making vows in front of God didn't guarantee them marital bliss; getting married in a 5-minute ceremony before a judge didn't doom our marriage to failure.

BTW, my wife still jokes that I was the first Jew she ever met. And she married him! So there's no accounting for taste - ha!

My wife and I talked about the religion thing regularly before we got married. And yes, we decided that we were going to have kids and that, when we did, we would raise them without religion. My wife was raised Catholic but she was non-religious ... hence her willingness to marry a Jew-turned-atheist in the first place.

Our kids (now grown) are 13 months apart. We celebrated neither Christmas nor Hanukkah nor any other religions. Our big days were their birthdays.

Here's where things get fairly interesting (IMHO) ...

When my kids were about 10 and 11, they started showing an interest in Judaism. Not sure if it was their older cousins' Bar/Bat Mitzvahs or seeing the Hanukkah haul some of their friends had or some seriously spiritual reasons. So my wife started reading up on it and signed her and me up for an "exploring Judaism" class for newbies at our local temple. She thought it would provide a better sense of "community" and wanted to encourage the kids to think about more than themselves, so I was willing. We eventually joined the temple. My daughter had her Bat Mitzvah. My son, who quickly grew bored with the whole thing, almost decided not to have a Bar Mitzvah but ended up doing so. My wife actually converted to Judaism - went through all the rigamarole, totally on her own accord. We made a few friends at the temple who are still friends today.

But that all ended up being pretty fleeting. Within less than a year after his Bar Mitzvah, my son decided religion was a crock (his word). A few years later, my daughter and wife came to the same conclusion. Maybe if I had been more gung-ho about the whole thing the result would have been different, but I had to stay true to myself - and ultimately my wife did, too.

What I like about all of that is that my wife had a choice. Each of my kids had a choice. We were "pretty Jewish" for a while there - lighting candles for Sabbath every Friday night, going to temple nearly every week, etc - and they decided, over time, it wasn't for them. I feel good that they had a choice, and feel proud of them that they exercised their choice, which was theirs and theirs alone. If one or more of them had decided they wanted to be practicing Jews, I would have been proud of that choice, too.

Both of my kids are engaged and both will be married in 2018 (not to each other - this ain't Kentucky!). My daughter is marrying a non-practicing Catholic from Canada, my son is marrying a "holiday Jew" from the Chicago burbs - one whose family did the Hanukkah-gift and Passover and Yom Kippur things, but otherwise went through life as secular people. (This is the way I was mostly raised, too. I'd guess that the vast majority of American Jews are "holiday Jews." For that matter, maybe the majority of Christians are "holiday Christians," too, but I don't know.)

My daughter is going to have a non-religious ceremony. My son's future father-in-law is insisting upon a rabbi friend of his performing the ceremony, but not at a synagogue. Both of my kids do not expect religion to play a role in the families they want to have, but one never knows. Maybe they will go through something like we did for a few years and it will "stick."

Had either of my kids fallen in love with, say, a zealous, Mike-Pence-like Christian, would I have been OK with it? I don't know ... would I have had a choice? I like to think I would have been open-minded, but I can't know because it didn't happen. What I will say is that if my grandkids are raised with some kind of religion, I will not mock that religion. I will give them Christmas/Hanukkah gifts if they celebrate those holidays - it will be their celebrations, not mine, just as I will give them birthday gifts because it will be their birthdays, not mine.

As for your final question - "who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?" - I turn to my inner self. I don't ask outside sources for strength. When I need counsel, I have my wife, my now-grown kids and a small group of best friends.

Real quick, true, relevant story:

We recently vacationed in Hawaii. I won't go into all the details, but I was stupid and was almost swept out to sea and might never have been heard from again. Keeping this real short, I literally was holding on to a couple of rocks and some seaweed for dear life. Never once did I say, "Oh God, if you get me through this, blah-blah-blah ... " I didn't even think it. All I said was, "Holy shyte, hold on, you effen idiot! Hold on until the riptide lets up!! Dig in!!!"

Thankfully, I am sitting here right now to write you this response. I didn't ask God for help, so if he or she exists and he or she gave it, the help was unsolicited.  I did ask myself for strength in a time of crisis, and I'm still alive.

I hope I didn't bore anybody with this stuff, but then again, I'm not the one who asked! Again, I find religion to be a fascinating topic.

[4everwarriors]

MN, thanks for your comprehensive answers. It truly is not any of my business, but again, I appreciate you sharing personal and sensitive feelings. Mazel tov on your kid's simchas, ai na?

[Goose]

MU82

Very interesting and thank you for sharing. We have many, many Jewish friends, both professionally and socially, and about half of the couples are half Catholic and half Jewish. It is funny, but the last 8-10 funerals or weddings I have attended have been at a temple, not a church. If you add in the couple of Bar Mitzvah's we have attended, it might be time for me to join the local temple.

[tower912]

Ok, so here da thin' y'all. True confessions, I use dis board ta decompress, express my alter ego, act flippant, or just plane have sum fun. It's a fookin' chat board, nothin' more and certainly nothin' less. Wen I'm pissed or, in dis case, dead serious 'bout a serious topic, den y'all are likely ta see da erudite scholar dat I am. Problem lots of y'all have is first off, ya tink someone cares. Dey don't. Secondly, ya tink someone is gonna tink you're important, worldy, ultra bright, or just plane, da chit. Well, no one gives a rat's ass or if dey due, their ain't nothin' of significance goin' on in der life utterwise, ai na?

Ahhhhhhhh.     Order is restored.   

[jsglow]

We're glad you weren't swept out to sea!

[warriorchick]

We recently vacationed in Hawaii. I won't go into all the details, but I was stupid and was almost swept out to sea and might never have been heard from again. Keeping this real short, I literally was holding on to a couple of rocks and some seaweed for dear life. Never once did I say, "Oh God, if you get me through this, blah-blah-blah ... " I didn't even think it. All I said was, "Holy shyte, hold on, you effen idiot! Hold on until the riptide lets up!! Dig in!!!"

Thankfully, I am sitting here right now to write you this response. I didn't ask God for help, so if he or she exists and he or she gave it, the help was unsolicited.  I did ask myself for strength in a time of crisis, and I'm still alive.

Buddy Christ says:

[Dr. Blackheart]

We're glad you weren't swept out to sea!

+1. What beach 82?