Keep Whining

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

My expectations when Wojo was hired was tourney by year 3 and start of another streak of tournies by year 5. I'm not sure if we'll make the tourney this year or not. It's clearly in reach but there's a lot of work to be done. If we make it I'd say my expectations have been met. If we don't, I think we're behind but still on track for the five year goal.

[Goose]

TAMU

Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.

As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.

As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.

So what you are saying is the admin gets a d for hirng wojo?

[Goose]

Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time. I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program. The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.

[mu03eng]

It ignores some very apparent systemic problems with the program.  IE defense and toughness.  Also a rather large roster turnover still going on in year 3.

This is also factual and even handed.
tomato, tomato...

Um, there is no direct, quantifiable evidence that there are systemic problems with defense or toughness.

I have concerns about Wojo's ability to coach/manage/strategize around defense, but what we've seen to date could be a direct result of roster/skill set mismatch to defensive strategy which resolves itself as Wojo gets more of his guys on the roster.

And toughness is some ethereal catch all that people use to justify a complaint about a result that they can't actually hang on something measurable. How do you measure toughness and show that MU is not as tough as years past.

Lastly, the roster turnover in the Wojo is no more than average for a coaching transition where the new coach comes in from outside of the program.

If you are going to insist on an evidence based evaluation, you should probably use...ya know....evidence.

[Golden Avalanche]

Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time. I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program. The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.

Considering your consistent moaning for the past many months, I'm unsure why you're here. It's the twilight of your ride and you should have a hobby that brings joy rather then pain. Move on.

[warriorchick]

Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time. I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program. The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.

Pretty brutal. 

If MU's admin is a D, what schools get A's, B's, or C's?

I take it you aren't grading on the curve. Are you one of those guys a couple years back who said that a Marquette coach only deserves an A if he wins the national championship?

[Let's Go Warriors]

Um, there is no direct, quantifiable evidence that there are systemic problems with defense or toughness.

I have concerns about Wojo's ability to coach/manage/strategize around defense, but what we've seen to date could be a direct result of roster/skill set mismatch to defensive strategy which resolves itself as Wojo gets more of his guys on the roster.

And toughness is some ethereal catch all that people use to justify a complaint about a result that they can't actually hang on something measurable. How do you measure toughness and show that MU is not as tough as years past.

Lastly, the roster turnover in the Wojo is no more than average for a coaching transition where the new coach comes in from outside of the program.

If you are going to insist on an evidence based evaluation, you should probably use...ya know....evidence.

And you have not evidence for this either.  The only evidence is that MUs defense is pretty bad.  And that you dont see a lot of hustle plays going on for MU.

Ill give you credit you used "could be" careful choice of words there...  Id sure hope by year 3 we would know for sure what MU team defense was really going to be about.  As I said, systemic problems...

[tower912]

Ours are 'opinions', but what you write is 'facts.'     Got it. 

[Let's Go Warriors]

Ours are 'opinions', but what you write is 'facts.'     Got it.

nope both are opinions but only one side is telling the other to shut up.

[tower912]

I'm not telling anyone to 'shut up'.   I specifically told 1SE to keep challenging.    Read.   Don't assume.  But don't get whiny when people disagree with your take.   

[g0lden3agle]

Considering your consistent moaning for the past many months, I'm unsure why you're here. It's the twilight of your ride and you should have a hobby that brings joy rather then pain. Move on.

Pretty uncalled for comment

[Lennys Tap]

My expectations when Wojo was hired was tourney by year 3 and start of another streak of tournies by year 5.

So, the tourney in year 3, no tourney in year 4, and a string of tourneys begin in year 5.

I admire the specificity of your expectations and you going out on a limb to publish them.
But just for grins what were those specifics based on?

[LAZER]

TAMU

Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.

As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.

I get that this game isn't a marquee opponent, but given where MU stands right now and the tournament implications of the game tonight I'm surprised you don't have any interest. Obviously MU isn't as competitive as years past, but we knew this is where they would likely be when Wojo took over a few years back.

[Goose]

Golden Avalanche

Appreciate the sound advice and it will be followed. All I can say is that I hope everybody on here loves MU ball and the University as much as I do.

Warriorchick

No, I was not one of the guys saying a coach only gets an A if they win NC. Was one of the guys saying that I feared the program was going backwards and the direction of the admin regarding the program had changed.

MUeng03

I hope it just the Admin has no idea what it is doing vs. making a decision to become SLU. Sad thing is, we became SLU either way. I respect school enough to think they made the decision and not poor management.

[tower912]

Also, Im predicting defensive shortcomings next season.  IMO these frosh and Frolling will be behind Fischer defensively, whom I believe is scapegoat for many on this board.

In another thread, I have made essentially the same point.   So our opinions actually are in sync here.   I am concerned about any of next year's bigs being able to defend in space and/or having the offensive skill to be a stretch 4 in a 4 out/1 in system.   

[Let's Go Warriors]

In another thread, I have made essentially the same point.   So our opinions actually are in sync here.   I am concerned about any of next year's bigs being able to defend in space and/or having the offensive skill to be a stretch 4 in a 4 out/1 in system.   

OK, then I guess I differ in the fact that Im not ok with the team still struggling on D in year #4.  I dont think that is a good thing or an acceptable thing.

[mu03eng]

MUeng03

I hope it just the Admin has no idea what it is doing vs. making a decision to become SLU. Sad thing is, we became SLU either way. I respect school enough to think they made the decision and not poor management.

If you honestly think we've turned into SLU from a basketball or school standpoint I'd argue that you don't know much about either thing.

I agree that there was mismanagement in the previous administration (IMO much more about arrogance/incompetence than deliberate action), but I am almost 100% satisfied that those issues have been corrected and that the program/administration is on the correct path.

[mu03eng]

And you have not evidence for this either.  The only evidence is that MUs defense is pretty bad.  And that you dont see a lot of hustle plays going on for MU.

Ill give you credit you used "could be" careful choice of words there...  Id sure hope by year 3 we would know for sure what MU team defense was really going to be about.  As I said, systemic problems...

Our defense is not pretty bad....it is almost literally average within the KenPom rankings for Div 1. The defense is not good enough right now to secure us a tournament bid, but in the grand scheme it could be worse. Also, Year 1 and 2 of Wojo's tenure the defense ended up being roughly comparable in performance, Year 3 is the outlier. There isn't enough evidence that says Wojo can't coach defense, but there is a concern.

I think Year 4 really tells us whether or not we have a defensive issue or not because they will all be Wojo guys. The two biggest player issues on defense are not Wojo guys technically though obviously he re-recruited them: JjJ and Luke. The offense has significantly improved under Wojo, let's see what he can do with his guys in year 4 and 5 on the defensive end.

[Marcus92]

One big question here: What is it to be a fan?

I'm not sure there's a right answer. Take the example of long-suffering Cubs fans (at least prior to the 2016 season). To some, they represented everything being a sports fan is about: devotion, pride, optimism, community. Others saw a bunch of suckers who continued to hand over their money no matter how bad the on-field performance.

As a Marquette alum, college basketball fan and season ticket holder, I want the basketball program to succeed at the highest level. But I also recognize there is more to it than just winning for MU. The coaches and players represent the university here in Milwaukee, statewide, nationally and around the world. Marquette is first and foremost an educational institution — and will under no circumstances allow athletics to compromise that. The basketball program is also a key revenue generator.

So, Marquette wants the basketball program to help achieve university goals. Fans, to a large degree, just want the program to win. Those aren't mutually exclusive objectives —but they aren't identical, either.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

As a Marquette alum, college basketball fan and season ticket holder, I want the basketball program to succeed at the highest level. But I also recognize there is more to it than just winning for MU. The coaches and players represent the university here in Milwaukee, statewide, nationally and around the world. Marquette is first and foremost an educational institution — and will under no circumstances allow athletics to compromise that. The basketball program is also a key revenue generator.

So, Marquette wants the basketball program to help achieve university goals. Fans, to a large degree, just want the program to win. Those aren't mutually exclusive objectives —but they aren't identical, either.

Here is what I believe.  Back in 1996 Father Wild realized that for this university to be relevant it needed to find a way to re-connect alumni and get them to donate big bucks.  His hypothesis was that the bball history and rabid fanbase with nostalgic thoughts of the 70's was the quickest way to get that engagement.  Thus a big time investment in bball that started with firing Dean --> hiring Crean --> Big East --> Al.  It was successful - hypothesis proved.

IMO Marquette needs bball to keep the national brand relevant & to keep things rolling with grads likely through the early 10's.  So good bball = high engagement = funds to take the university forward on its mission.

I am not saying this model will work forever, but I believe if we walk away from it, it would be detrimental to the university.

So fan? Interested party? People getting re-connected with their fond MU memories?  Its all the same in this instance.

[RushmoreAcademy]

So I say keep whining - it's healthy and it staves off settling for second best. Let's continue to demand more than the best for MUBB. Of course we aren't going to achieve it, but the goal should be win everyday. Cut down the nets every year. Until we go on a 89 game win streak or have 8 consecutive titles let's aspire to more!

That'd be a great speech if it was given to those whose actions actually play a part in the outcome.

[Let's Go Warriors]

One big question here: What is it to be a fan?

I'm not sure there's a right answer. Take the example of long-suffering Cubs fans (at least prior to the 2016 season). To some, they represented everything being a sports fan is about: devotion, pride, optimism, community. Others saw a bunch of suckers who continued to hand over their money no matter how bad the on-field performance.

As a Marquette alum, college basketball fan and season ticket holder, I want the basketball program to succeed at the highest level. But I also recognize there is more to it than just winning for MU. The coaches and players represent the university here in Milwaukee, statewide, nationally and around the world. Marquette is first and foremost an educational institution — and will under no circumstances allow athletics to compromise that. The basketball program is also a key revenue generator.

So, Marquette wants the basketball program to help achieve university goals. Fans, to a large degree, just want the program to win. Those aren't mutually exclusive objectives —but they aren't identical, either.

I always thought part of being a fan was being able to complain to each other about your team.  Always following them(not without dissent) no matter their record year after year after year.

[brewcity77]

The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.

So...have you actually looked at what SLU looks like lately? They are currently 4-11 on the season, 0-3 in the A-10, their best win is Eastern Illinois, and since Wojo took over here, SLU is 26-53 (8-31) while Marquette is 43-38 (13-26) and in his worst season he won more games (13) than SLU has won any of the past three years.

Sorry, but this is just silly talk. It's parroting a false old narrative that doesn't reflect the actual performance or the trajectory the program has shown the past three years.

[Marcus92]

Here is what I believe.  Back in 1996 Father Wild realized that for this university to be relevant it needed to find a way to re-connect alumni and get them to donate big bucks.  His hypothesis was that the bball history and rabid fanbase with nostalgic thoughts of the 70's was the quickest way to get that engagement.  Thus a big time investment in bball that started with firing Dean --> hiring Crean --> Big East --> Al.  It was successful - hypothesis proved.

IMO Marquette needs bball to keep the national brand relevant & to keep things rolling with grads likely through the early 10's.  So good bball = high engagement = funds to take the university forward on its mission.

I am not saying this model will work forever, but I believe if we walk away from it, it would be detrimental to the university.

So fan? Interested party? People getting re-connected with their fond MU memories?  Its all the same in this instance.

All good points, and I agree with you for the most part. (Which is why I said they're not mutually exclusive objectives).

I do think it's important to remember that as a private Jesuit institution, Marquette is different from many other universities. For example, could you ever imagine Al McGuire or any MU head coach keeping his job after: 1) cheating on his wife in the middle of a restaurant and paying her to get an abortion; then 2) having an assistant coach arrange and pay for strippers and prostitutes to entertain players and recruits?

Marquette believes in excellence. Winning on the basketball court is part of that commitment — but not at any cost.