Warriors vs Cavaliers II

[Silkk the Shaka]

Oh please.  James is one of the top 5/10 of all time regardless of his performance in that Finals.  Even if he "choked," he followed it up the next three years with two additional titles and another Finals appearance.  If you are going to focus on that single Finals as the one defining moment in his career go right ahead...but I think it's silly.

No. I'd rather have, at minimum, in no particular order off the top of my head:

Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Curry
Olajuwon
2006-2011 Prime Wade

He's top 15-20 for sure. Nothing to sneeze at. Just not top 5/10. 2011 finals performance is just a microcosm of why I wouldn't put him top 10, not the only reason.

[GGGG]

OK I can't disagree with a lot of these.  Maybe a quibble here and there (Olajuwon...Curry (time will tell)...Shaq).  Except Bird.  I wish people would stop putting Bird in there.  He is not in that same class. 

[brandx]

No. I'd rather have, at minimum, in no particular order off the top of my head:

Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Curry
Olajuwon
2006-2011 Prime Wade

He's top 15-20 for sure. Nothing to sneeze at. Just not top 5/10. 2011 finals performance is just a microcosm of why I wouldn't put him top 10, not the only reason.

You are simply a Lebron hater. You have shown no rational thought except that you hate Lebron.

Just say that and let it go.

[GooooMarquette]

No. I'd rather have, at minimum, in no particular order off the top of my head:

Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Curry
Olajuwon
2006-2011 Prime Wade

He's top 15-20 for sure. Nothing to sneeze at. Just not top 5/10. 2011 finals performance is just a microcosm of why I wouldn't put him top 10, not the only reason.

Disagree with Shaq and Bird, and probably Duncan and Olajuwon.

I would, however, add Chamberlain.

[forgetful]

Disagree with Shaq and Bird, and probably Duncan and Olajuwon.

I would, however, add Chamberlain.

I'd also add Oscar Robinson.

[Silkk the Shaka]

You are simply a Lebron hater. You have shown no rational thought except that you hate Lebron.

Just say that and let it go.

Since when is calling someone a top 15-20 player all-time an insult? He's definitely closer to 15 than the ludicrous #3 all-time that ESPN ranked him recently. If he can be honest with himself, dominate the ball less, and morph his game into a PF and win another championship before it's all said and done that would impress me enough to put him top 10. There's still time, but he's not there yet in my mind.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I'd also add Oscar Robinson.

I could agree with Wilt and Oscar ahead of him. Definitely his equals at this point in time at bare minimum

[Silkk the Shaka]

Disagree with Shaq and Bird, and probably Duncan and Olajuwon.

I would, however, add Chamberlain.

Shaq daddy was more dominant than LeBron ever was for that 3 year title stretch. Check the numbers, they're patently absurd. He put up 38/17, 33/16, and 36/12 in 3 consecutive finals on 60+% shooting. 100% you take Shaq vs. LeBron's current resume.

[MU82]

Shaq daddy was more dominant than LeBron ever was for that 3 year title stretch. Check the numbers, they're patently absurd. He put up 38/17, 33/16, and 36/12 in 3 consecutive finals on 60+% shooting. 100% you take Shaq vs. LeBron's current resume.

Yes, those numbers are impressive. Still, it's not easy for me to tout a guy who had to sit during the fourth quarter of playoff games -- including Finals games -- because he couldn't make an effen free throw.

Furthermore, Shaq wins nothing without Kobe and Wade. Nothing. Kobe and Wade have won without Shaq. He never won without an alpha-male guard.

The thing that always cracked me up about Shaq's FTs was that he claimed he made most of them in practice. In other words, he was publicly stating that he choked in games.

[forgetful]

Yes, those numbers are impressive. Still, it's not easy for me to tout a guy who had to sit during the fourth quarter of playoff games -- including Finals games -- because he couldn't make an effen free throw.

Furthermore, Shaq wins nothing without Kobe and Wade. Nothing. Kobe and Wade have won without Shaq. He never won without an alpha-male guard.

The thing that always cracked me up about Shaq's FTs was that he claimed he made most of them in practice. In other words, he was publicly stating that he choked in games.

Can't we also say that Lebron would never win without Wade and Bosh? 

[GooooMarquette]

Can't we also say that Lebron would never win without Wade and Bosh?

To this point, that is certainly true.

[GGGG]

And Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen.  And Magic Johnson never won without Kareem.  Kareem never won without a HOF teammate.  Neither did Russell.  Or Chamberlain. 

In fact the last time I think any team won without two HOFers, or players presumably making the HOF, are the Bad Boys Pistons teams.  Before that you have to go back to the Golden State team of the mid 70s.

The fact is its very hard to win an NBA title without multiple, elite level players.

[wadesworld]

And Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen.  And Magic Johnson never won without Kareem.  Kareem never won without a HOF teammate.  Neither did Russell.  Or Chamberlain. 

In fact the last time I think any team won without two HOFers, or players presumably making the HOF, are the Bad Boys Pistons teams.  Before that you have to go back to the Golden State team of the mid 70s.

The fact is its very hard to win an NBA title without multiple, elite level players.

Are Chauncey and Rip HOFers?  Do Curry, Klay, and Draymond all get into the HOF?  Does Pao get into the HOF?

Is Wade's performance in his first NBA Finals appearance the best in the last 30 years?  He legitimately completely carried the Heat to a Title by himself.  Shaq is obviously an HOFer, but he was also obviously way past his prime that season (but still was okay).

[GGGG]

wades, to be honest I skipped over that Detroit team.  Good catch.  Pao should be in the HOF.  Way too early to determine this GSW team.

Wade's appearance in the Finals is the best I have ever seen.  But I'm biased.

I also think that Lebron's work in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals (after Game 2) was one of the best I have ever seen.  The fact that he dragged that junk of a roster to the Finals was pretty incredible.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

wades, to be honest I skipped over that Detroit team.  Good catch.  Pao should be in the HOF.  Way too early to determine this GSW team.

Wade's appearance in the Finals is the best I have ever seen.  But I'm biased.

I also think that Lebron's work in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals (after Game 2) was one of the best I have ever seen.  The fact that he dragged that junk of a roster to the Finals was pretty incredible.

Nobody, carried a team to the NBA Finals with less than Allen Iverson in 2001. I looked up that roster, it was absolutely dreadful.

[GGGG]

Nobody, carried a team to the NBA Finals with less than Allen Iverson in 2001. I looked up that roster, it was absolutely dreadful.

Except they landed Dikembe at the trade deadline that year.  He ended up as the DPOY and All-NBA Second team.

And Glenn Robinson missed that damn layup in Game 5.

[wadesworld]

wades, to be honest I skipped over that Detroit team.  Good catch.  Pao should be in the HOF.  Way too early to determine this GSW team.

Wade's appearance in the Finals is the best I have ever seen.  But I'm biased.

I also think that Lebron's work in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals (after Game 2) was one of the best I have ever seen.  The fact that he dragged that junk of a roster to the Finals was pretty incredible.

I honestly don't know the answers to those guys.  I think Chauncey is a fairly certain HOFer.  I don't think Rip did it at a HOF level for nearly long enough.  Rasheed?  I don't think so but a tiny chance I guess.  No to Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince.  That's about it for that team.

Interestingly...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

Didn't look into their methods but they have Iggy listed as having a probability while not listing Draymond or Klay.

[GGGG]

I just don't think Draymond or Klay have played long enough.

And thanks for that list.  Noticed that Jack Sikma isn't in the HOF.  I assumed he was, so you can add the 1979 Sonics team as another one with only one HOFer.  (Dennis Johnson)

[brandx]

Cleveland has to chance for a win tonight with Love out of the game.

[forgetful]

And Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen.  And Magic Johnson never won without Kareem.  Kareem never won without a HOF teammate.  Neither did Russell.  Or Chamberlain. 

In fact the last time I think any team won without two HOFers, or players presumably making the HOF, are the Bad Boys Pistons teams.  Before that you have to go back to the Golden State team of the mid 70s.

The fact is its very hard to win an NBA title without multiple, elite level players.

A difficult aspect of looking at things this way is, were the sidekicks HOF players if they did not play with Jordan, Magic/Kareem, Russell, Bird etc.

Those teams typically always stayed together, so much of their HOF success is associated with playing together as a team. 

One could argue that those players made others around them HOF players.  Apparently Lebron can't.  He needs to team up with players that made themselves HOF; and when he does, they play worse than they did before.

I'm not actually arguing the above, just pointing out the problems with such analysis.  It is all completely subjective.  They did play together and their mutual success contributed to people becoming HOF.

[brandx]

A difficult aspect of looking at things this way is, were the sidekicks HOF players if they did not play with Jordan, Magic/Kareem, Russell, Bird etc.

Those teams typically always stayed together, so much of their HOF success is associated with playing together as a team. 

One could argue that those players made others around them HOF players.  Apparently Lebron can't.  He needs to team up with players that made themselves HOF; and when he does, they play worse than they did before.

I'm not actually arguing the above, just pointing out the problems with such analysis.  It is all completely subjective.  They did play together and their mutual success contributed to people becoming HOF.

Great players don't need other players to be great. Winning titles may be linked to playing with other great players - but being a star does not.

And it is insulting to say a certain player is great only because he played with another player. Magic didn't make Kareem a better player or vice versa. Jordan didn't make Pippen better. Pippen was a great player.

Lebron didn't need to make Wade or Bosh better. They were both going to be in the HoF whether or not they played with Lebron.

But Love is not Bosh and Irving is not Wade. In fact, neither one is even close. That is why the Cavs are losing. The Cavs have one great player. GS has one great player and three very, very good players who are better than anyone that Lebron has on his side.

[rocket surgeon]

I'd also add Oscar Robinson.

i was also thinking of the "big O" myself.  i saw him play the bucks in the old arena when he was with the cincinnati royals.  kareem was very good, of course, but when they brought in the "big O" is what put them over the top to win the big one.  yes kareem was dominating by himself, and the "big O" was dominating by himself, but you put them together and...

[forgetful]

Great players don't need other players to be great. Winning titles may be linked to playing with other great players - but being a star does not.

And it is insulting to say a certain player is great only because he played with another player. Magic didn't make Kareem a better player or vice versa. Jordan didn't make Pippen better. Pippen was a great player.

Lebron didn't need to make Wade or Bosh better. They were both going to be in the HoF whether or not they played with Lebron.

But Love is not Bosh and Irving is not Wade. In fact, neither one is even close. That is why the Cavs are losing. The Cavs have one great player. GS has one great player and three very, very good players who are better than anyone that Lebron has on his side.

Kyrie Irving has been in the league 5 years now.  He is already a 3-time all star.

He already is a great player.  Lebron makes him worse by taking him out of his game (Kyrie needs to have the ball in his hands all the time). 

Love is a three time all star.  Before coming to play with Lebron he average 26 pts 13 rebounds.  Those are MVP type numbers (PER was 26.1). 

Saying that they aren't great players is absurd.  One only does that to help explain Lebron's lack of success with them.  With the talent they have they should be winning close to 70 games in the East.  They only won 57. 

[forgetful]

Also, the officiating in this game is why I often say the NBA is essentially WWE, mostly rigged, but the athletes still need to perform. 

[GGGG]

Also, the officiating in this game is why I often say the NBA is essentially WWE, mostly rigged, but the athletes still need to perform. 

Just when you make a few good points, you drop this.