Warriors vs Cavaliers II

[GGGG]

Is Kevin Love better with Lebron?
Is Irving?
Was Wade?
Was Bosh?
Was Ilgauskas?

Statistically all but Irving were better without James as a teammate.  But the same is true with James.  His best years statistically were the last two he had in Cleveland because he had no one around him.

That's kind of the point right?  Good players sacrificing statistically so they can win championships.  Cause outside of Wade a decade ago, none of the teammates you mentioned got close to the Finals.  I'm not even sure Love made the playoffs.

I'm beginning to think that wades is right about Love v. Wiggins and that was short-sighted.  (I still think Blatt sucks though.)

I also do agree about the ball stopping in the Cavs offense.  It becomes very apparent when you look at them versus the Warriors, Thunder (when they are good), Spurs, etc.

[jesmu84]

At the end of the day, Lebron was given a LOT of power/control within the organization. It has been reported this is one of the reasons he agreed to come back to Cleveland. He made his bed and now he has to lie in it. My guess is that he'll be leaving Cleveland shortly and will take little-to-no responsibility for the state of the roster/organization that he had a large hand in creating.

[GooooMarquette]

Statistically all but Irving were better without James as a teammate.  But the same is true with James.  His best years statistically were the last two he had in Cleveland because he had no one around him.

That's kind of the point right?  Good players sacrificing statistically so they can win championships.  Cause outside of Wade a decade ago, none of the teammates you mentioned got close to the Finals.  I'm not even sure Love made the playoffs.

I'm beginning to think that wades is right about Love v. Wiggins and that was short-sighted.  (I still think Blatt sucks though.)

I also do agree about the ball stopping in the Cavs offense.  It becomes very apparent when you look at them versus the Warriors, Thunder (when they are good), Spurs, etc.

You seem to recognize that a true assessment of players requires comparisons - how good they are compared to others, how well they play on one team as opposed to another, etc.

Then you make the categorical statement that "Blatt sucks."  Isn't the more relevant question whether they'd be more competitive right now with Blatt than Lue?  I'd argue that they would be.  And the fact that they're stuck with Lue is on LeBron.

[GGGG]

I think Blatt clearly knows basketball.  I think Blatt struggled with communicating with his players.  I'm sure he's a nice guy and knows his Xs and Os.  I don't think he makes a good NBA coach where it is oftentimes the off court stuff that is so very important.

I don't think Lue is good either though.

[StillAWarrior]

As a Cavs fan, this is obviously disappointing.  I picked the Cavs in six, but was fully aware I was picking with my heart more than my head.  It's unfortunate to see them playing the way that they're playing.  It's a different team than played the other rounds of the playoffs.  I'm sure some of that is attributable to Golden State, but some I just don't understand.  The ball movement is gone.  In my head I always knew that they'd probably lose to a team that is undeniably an all-time great team (at least single season), but I didn't expect such humiliating losses.  Hopefully they can salvage some respectability. 

[forgetful]

Statistically all but Irving were better without James as a teammate.  But the same is true with James.  His best years statistically were the last two he had in Cleveland because he had no one around him.

That's kind of the point right?  Good players sacrificing statistically so they can win championships.  Cause outside of Wade a decade ago, none of the teammates you mentioned got close to the Finals.  I'm not even sure Love made the playoffs.

Look at Jordan and Pippen.  Statistically Pippen's best years were with Jordan.  When Jordan Left, Pippen's performance declined significantly. 

Jordan sacrificed some of his own shots/statistics, to make those around him better (he didn't do this in the very beginning of his career and didn't win championships because of it).  Lebron doesn't.  Everyone he plays with has their statistics cut.

I think GSW players all make each other better and if you took any one of them and put them on another team, their stats would decline.  If you took any player (not named Lebron) off Cleveland, their stats would increase.

[GGGG]

Look at Jordan and Pippen.  Statistically Pippen's best years were with Jordan.  When Jordan Left, Pippen's performance declined significantly. 

That's actually not true.  Pippen's best two years PPG and RPG wise were 1993-94 and 1994-95 - when Jordan temporarily retired.  Those years were also when his efficiency and VORP peaked.

The very first year Jordan returned, he played less, shot less and rebounded less.  However he did assist more.

[MU82]

Pippen had his best season the year Jordan was enjoying his bush-league baseball odyssey. He was the ASG MVP and finished third in league MVP voting. His second-best statistical season was the following year -- before Jordan came back in March. He averaged more points, rebounds and steals than he ever did with MJ as a teammate.

Does that mean Jordan made Pippen "worse"? Or does it just mean Pippen's role simply was different because he was the main man sans Michael but was obvious second-banana as Jordan's teammate?

LeBron commands major attention from opposing defenses. He is a gifted passer and some of his critics say he is sometimes too unselfish. His rebounds and steals help his teammates get more and better shot attempts. He is a tremendous help defender who covers up his teammates' mistakes.

Anybody who really thinks LeBron made Bosh a "worse" player didn't watch the Heat very closely, IMHO. Bosh got more wide-open shots during his time with LeBron than he ever got without LBJ. Not to mention that LeBron took major pressure off Bosh and Wade.

On bad teams, yes, Irving and Love were "main men." It is now incumbent upon them to be better teammates. I mean, once upon a time, Earl Monroe and Jerry Lucas were absolute studs. But they knew the only way they could win a championship was to buy into being great teammates to Clyde, Willis and DeBusschere.

I'm not absolving LeBron of his role, but please.

As for him "playing GM," what the hell do people think Magic  did? Kobe, Michael, Isiah, too. Stop it.

[wadesworld]

Look at Jordan and Pippen.  Statistically Pippen's best years were with Jordan.  When Jordan Left, Pippen's performance declined significantly. 

Jordan sacrificed some of his own shots/statistics, to make those around him better (he didn't do this in the very beginning of his career and didn't win championships because of it).  Lebron doesn't.  Everyone he plays with has their statistics cut.

I think GSW players all make each other better and if you took any one of them and put them on another team, their stats would decline.  If you took any player (not named Lebron) off Cleveland, their stats would increase.

They make each other better, yes.  But I think if a majority of them were on a different team most of them would have much better statistics.  Curry, Klay, and Draymond would be roughly the same as they are on GS.  But guys like Iggy, Barnes, Livingston, Barbosa, and Speights particularly, and even Ezili and Bogut, could be much more productive offensive players on teams other than the GSW.  But who do you want getting more attempts, Curry and Klay or Barnes and Iggy?  Not a question if you ask me.

Pippen had his best season the year Jordan was enjoying his bush-league baseball odyssey. He was the ASG MVP and finished third in league MVP voting. His second-best statistical season was the following year -- before Jordan came back in March. He averaged more points, rebounds and steals than he ever did with MJ as a teammate.

Does that mean Jordan made Pippen "worse"? Or does it just mean Pippen's role simply was different because he was the main man sans Michael but was obvious second-banana as Jordan's teammate?

LeBron commands major attention from opposing defenses. He is a gifted passer and some of his critics say he is sometimes too unselfish. His rebounds and steals help his teammates get more and better shot attempts. He is a tremendous help defender who covers up his teammates' mistakes.

Anybody who really thinks LeBron made Bosh a "worse" player didn't watch the Heat very closely, IMHO. Bosh got more wide-open shots during his time with LeBron than he ever got without LBJ. Not to mention that LeBron took major pressure off Bosh and Wade.

On bad teams, yes, Irving and Love were "main men." It is now incumbent upon them to be better teammates. I mean, once upon a time, Earl Monroe and Jerry Lucas were absolute studs. But they knew the only way they could win a championship was to buy into being great teammates to Clyde, Willis and DeBusschere.

I'm not absolving LeBron of his role, but please.

As for him "playing GM," what the hell do people think Magic  did? Kobe, Michael, Isiah, too. Stop it.

LeBron's defense might be the most overrated individual defensive player in the league.  Watch him play free safety and as a result his man gets a wide open look, and then he looks at his teammates with his palms up and his whiny face like, "How can you let this happen?!" when it's his man getting a wide open shot because he just decided to float around hoping for a lazy pass form the other team that he can turn into a breakaway dunk.

[brandx]

Certain guys don't win championships. Love and Irving are this type. Carmelo and Harden are the same. They are alpha dog players whose game only compliments themselves.

If a team is vying for an NBA title - ala Houston, OKC, Toronto - would they be better off adding Love, Irving or Tristian Thompson if they are serious about winning?

Thompson would make each team better - I don't see how the other two would do that.

[Silkk the Shaka]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106070DAL.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106020MIA.html

I will never forgive LeBron for these two dogsh*t performances.

He robbed Wade of another finals MVP because he either 1.) couldn't rise to the occasion or 2.) didn't want his first title to be a result of his teammate obviously playing at a higher level so he tanked it.

You can't be considered a top 5 player of all time when you deliver a finals performance that terrible in your prime without being injured.

Give me prime Wade (2006 - 2011) in crunch time over LeBron any day.

[GGGG]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106070DAL.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106020MIA.html

I will never forgive LeBron for these two dogsh*t performances.

He robbed Wade of another finals MVP because he either 1.) couldn't rise to the occasion or 2.) didn't want his first title to be a result of his teammate obviously playing at a higher level so he tanked it.

You can't be considered a top 5 player of all time when you deliver a finals performance that terrible in your prime without being injured.

This is just silly. 

[forgetful]

That's actually not true.  Pippen's best two years PPG and RPG wise were 1993-94 and 1994-95 - when Jordan temporarily retired.  Those years were also when his efficiency and VORP peaked.

The very first year Jordan returned, he played less, shot less and rebounded less.  However he did assist more.

The statistical differences are minute in those years. Compare 91-92, 93-94, 94-95, 95-96, 96-97.  Very consistent level of play with a small uptick without Jordan in 93-94 and 94-95.

Now, look at the difference between 97-98 (last year with Jordan) and thereafter.  Massive drop off without Jordan.

[GGGG]

He was also 33.

[brandx]

The statistical differences are minute in those years. Compare 91-92, 93-94, 94-95, 95-96, 96-97.  Very consistent level of play with a small uptick without Jordan in 93-94 and 94-95.

Now, look at the difference between 97-98 (last year with Jordan) and thereafter.  Massive drop off without Jordan.

So you're saying he got worse as he approached his mid-30s?

Who woulda thunk it?

[Silkk the Shaka]

This is just silly.

How?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

How?

LeBron went to Miami to win. There's no way he was that petty to tank it. I'm not a LeBron fan but that is the biggest "LeBron hater" comment I've ever seen.

[GGGG]

Furthermore you will "never forgive" (as if he needs your forgiveness) about two games played five years ago is silly.  He helped get Wade two additional titles - titles he very likely would not have won otherwise.  And the accusation of tanking is ridiculous. 

[brandx]

LeBron went to Miami to win. There's no way he was that petty to tank it. I'm not a LeBron fan but that is the biggest "LeBron hater" comment I've ever seen.

+1000

[forgetful]

He was also 33.

So he went from performing the same for years at 32, to a drastic drop in production when he turned 33 and then maintained a steady output for a couple more years.

That turning to 33, really bit him in the butt.  Or, Jordan made him better and when Jordan left, his production declined as focus turned to him defensively. 

Wade is the good counter comparison to Pippen (similar ages when star leaves).  Wade maintained production after Lebron, despite aging.  Pippen fell dramatically.

[Silkk the Shaka]

LeBron went to Miami to win. There's no way he was that petty to tank it. I'm not a LeBron fan but that is the biggest "LeBron hater" comment I've ever seen.

I said or. There were two options, that was one. If he didn't tank it, it was a pathetic choke job. Neither is good.

[GGGG]

So he went from performing the same for years at 32, to a drastic drop in production when he turned 33 and then maintained a steady output for a couple more years.

That turning to 33, really bit him in the butt.  Or, Jordan made him better and when Jordan left, his production declined as focus turned to him defensively. 

Wade is the good counter comparison to Pippen (similar ages when star leaves).  Wade maintained production after Lebron, despite aging.  Pippen fell dramatically.

That sounds more about Pippen than it does anything else.  Again, Pippen's production increased when Jordan first retired.  Just like your not as good as Larry Bird statement, I think you are searching for reasons to degrade James.

[GooooMarquette]

I think Blatt clearly knows basketball.  I think Blatt struggled with communicating with his players.  I'm sure he's a nice guy and knows his Xs and Os.  I don't think he makes a good NBA coach where it is oftentimes the off court stuff that is so very important.

I don't think Lue is good either though.

Fair assessment on both coaches.

But when Cleveland came as close as they did last season with Irving injured - and they had every reason to believe they'd do as well or better this season - it was dumb to can the guy who got them there (and was 30-11 this season, mostly without Irving again) in favor of an unproven coach.

Lue might end up being a good coach in the long run, but guys who "might be good coaches in the long run" aren't the best choices for championship-ready teams.  They're the guys who should be hired by young, developing teams.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Furthermore you will "never forgive" (as if he needs your forgiveness) about two games played five years ago is silly.  He helped get Wade two additional titles - titles he very likely would not have won otherwise.  And the accusation of tanking is ridiculous.

This is what I mean though. He used that horrid performance to convince Wade over the ensuing offseason that it couldn't be a 1A/1B setup. LeBron had to be the clear #1 or he wouldn't be able to thrive. And Wade acquiesced in the name of titles. If LeBron had done the same for Wade in 2011, he'd be one of my favorite players of all time. But either he couldn't or he wouldn't. Can you name another supposed top 5/10 player all-time that had a similar finals performance when fully healthy? In his second go-round no less? He EITHER choked or tanked. Those are the only options. One is an indictment of his ability to rise to the occasion, the other is an indictment of his ability to sacrifice ego for titles. Whichever one it is, it disqualifies him from any claim of top 5/10 all-time. And it had a direct negative effect on Wade's legacy. Shameful.

[GGGG]

Oh please.  James is one of the top 5/10 of all time regardless of his performance in that Finals.  Even if he "choked," he followed it up the next three years with two additional titles and another Finals appearance.  If you are going to focus on that single Finals as the one defining moment in his career go right ahead...but I think it's silly.