Are we better than last year?

[1SE]

I think you are exaggerating a few things here.  First, it did not take a decade to build back the program.  We went five years between the firing of Dukiet and getting back to the Sweet 16.

Second, we were not on the cusp of being a blue-blood.  We went on a nice run  Programs do that.  My guess is that we will be back to the S16 within the next few years.

I think people need to stop being so chicken-little-ish here.  Spending money doesn't guaranty anything.  Spending money just makes the downside shorter and less severe.

Yes, a bit of hyperbole - what are message boards for?  But if anything that builds my point - from 1993-2013 we were a force - 18 post-season appearances in 20 years, and a stretch of 8 straight NCAA.  Maybe not tier-one blue-blood, and not quite Al-Raymonds-esque but that kind of consistency gets close to the big boys - e.g. on the cusp (esp since we were bringing the money to the table to sustain the success). 

I guess I'm just still stung over "losing" Shaka - he was the caliber coach we should have been able to land.  You think he'd be missing the post-season two years in a row? (I mean we need 5 more wins for a reasonable shot at the NIT - looking tougher)  We didn't get him, I get it, and it's not fair to judge Wojo to the same standard.  So maybe I've been unfair here - Wojo isn't necessarily falling short of expectation - MU fell short of expectations in making their post-Buzz hire.  And I get it - even the UCLAs and IUs of the world have down stretches - but when you get excited all year for the prospect of the upcoming season it's disheartening when you're "playing for pride" in 3 consecutive febs.  (And who knows - maybe I'm chicken littleling and they'll run off 9 straights and ride the momentum all the way to the final four.  Again, very very happy to eat crow pie if that happens).   

[GGGG]

I'm not disputing that this season has been disappointing.  I am disputing that this is the beginning of the end of Marquette basketball.  (Not saying you said that.)  Marquette has been through slumps before.  It will go through them again.

[1SE]

I'm not disputing that this season has been disappointing.  I am disputing that this is the beginning of the end of Marquette basketball.  (Not saying you said that.)  Marquette has been through slumps before.  It will go through them again.

Right - I'm just saying that 1) it would have been nice not to have gone into a slump (maybe unavoidable but still unfortunate) and 2) sometimes it's harder to get out of a slump than into one - success often breeds success, and, well, less-than success also breeds the same.  We all want HE to stay and if he does I feel real good about the trajectory - but I think it's a fools dream to think we'll have better results than this season next year without him. 

[mu_hilltopper]

I'd make a case that this time is different.

Ticket costs (and required donations) are double what they used to be.  ALL games are televised in splendid High Def.  It'll take many years to work out the bad taste of losing the OBig East, not having a delicious stream of a-list teams at the BC, being on the mighty ESPN and now .. the Ocho, FS1.

I wouldn't say "this is the end" .. no.  But I don't have the vision we'll ever get back to the heights of ~2004-2012.   Not saying never, but ..

Frankly, long-term success in MBB is just really hard.  Takes some luck and special sauce to reach where we did and I think that's hard to come by.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I'd make a case that this time is different.

Ticket costs (and required donations) are double what they used to be.  ALL games are televised in splendid High Def.  It'll take many years to work out the bad taste of losing the OBig East, not having a delicious stream of a-list teams at the BC, being on the mighty ESPN and now .. the Ocho, FS1.

I wouldn't say "this is the end" .. no.  But I don't have the vision we'll ever get back to the heights of ~2004-2012.   Not saying never, but ..

Frankly, long-term success in MBB is just really hard.  Takes some luck and special sauce to reach where we did and I think that's hard to come by.

Good points but why can't I read this without hearing a sad trombone playing in the background

[WarriorPride68]

I'd make a case that this time is different.

Ticket costs (and required donations) are double what they used to be.  ALL games are televised in splendid High Def.  It'll take many years to work out the bad taste of losing the OBig East, not having a delicious stream of a-list teams at the BC, being on the mighty ESPN and now .. the Ocho, FS1.

I wouldn't say "this is the end" .. no.  But I don't have the vision we'll ever get back to the heights of ~2004-2012.   Not saying never, but ..

Frankly, long-term success in MBB is just really hard.  Takes some luck and special sauce to reach where we did and I think that's hard to come by.

You make good points. And now I'm sad

[Lennys Tap]

I'd make a case that this time is different.

Ticket costs (and required donations) are double what they used to be.  ALL games are televised in splendid High Def.  It'll take many years to work out the bad taste of losing the OBig East, not having a delicious stream of a-list teams at the BC, being on the mighty ESPN and now .. the Ocho, FS1.

I wouldn't say "this is the end" .. no.  But I don't have the vision we'll ever get back to the heights of ~2004-2012.   Not saying never, but ..

Frankly, long-term success in MBB is just really hard.  Takes some luck and special sauce to reach where we did and I think that's hard to come by.

This is what Buzz saw too. A large part of the reason he left.

[brewcity77]

I'd make a case that this time is different.

Ticket costs (and required donations) are double what they used to be.  ALL games are televised in splendid High Def.  It'll take many years to work out the bad taste of losing the OBig East, not having a delicious stream of a-list teams at the BC, being on the mighty ESPN and now .. the Ocho, FS1.

I wouldn't say "this is the end" .. no.  But I don't have the vision we'll ever get back to the heights of ~2004-2012.   Not saying never, but ..

Frankly, long-term success in MBB is just really hard.  Takes some luck and special sauce to reach where we did and I think that's hard to come by.

Fair points. Here's my counter:

In 2-1/2 years, the new arena will open. Ticket sales will go back up, at least temporarily, from fans curious to see the new venue both in terms of STHs and casual walk-up fans.

In general, we will be a lower cost alternative to basketball fans that want to watch games in a state-of-the-art NBA facility without paying NBA prices.

If we are winning, the fans will stay. If a team that features seniors Cheatham, Heldt, Carter, and Anim, along with the Hauser brothers, Markus Howard, and Brendan Bailey can be a top-25 staple and earn a high seed while winning at home, the new interest gained from the arena could easily translate to a new generation of long term STHs.

I understand the negatives going on now, but the arena will open at a perfect time to give us the chance to turn it around, if Wojo and the staff can answer the bell by then.

[LAZER]

This is what Buzz saw too. A large part of the reason he left.

So he went to a program that averaged 5700 in attendance a game?

[WarriorPride68]

So he went to a program that averaged 5700 in attendance a game?

I think he meant going to P5 conference (ACC) & working with his buddy in the Athletic department who will let Buzz do whatever he wants.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why do you feel this is a rewarding goal for MU?

In my opinion,  if one is to use the basketball program to help market the university and the quality of the school, we should aspire to put the product in as best a light as possible.  MU is a private school, costs a considerable amount of money to attend and there is a perceived value for that money spent.

Now, not everyone agrees with this. UConn is a good school, G'Town is a good school, both basketball programs have taken their share of guys that quite frankly didn't belong academically in the parking lot of the school.  Different strokes for different folks.  I admire what Stanford does, UCLA, Duke, Notre Dame, etc.  Yup, exceptions at all of those schools, but by and large I believe it helps in the overall reputation of the school, it also helps the kids that are playing for those schools because they come out with folks knowing these kids are not only quality athletes, but are prepared intellectually.  They weren't there just to play a game.  In the end, that's a huge benefit to those kids for many reasons.

My two cents, many will disagree.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Despite being an infrequent naying nellie THIS THIS THIS is why I post.  This is also why we need the "Just win baby" mentality.  Because how many years do we sustain the 10 million expense bill with these falling ticket numbers?  We are already one of the least profitable of the big-spending programs.  Yes the Fox money helps, but it's a double edged sword - we get it either way.  If we lose half the fan base at what point does the admin say "f*ck it" and just free-ride on the BE TV contract and NCAA money from the perennial tourney goers?  I think there is a real real danger of a downward spiral here - we lose games, we lose fans, MU starts pulling back on the money into the program, so we lose more games (can't recruit as well), lose more fans, spend less money, etc. etc. etc.   What break my heart is that after really almost 20 years of oblivion in the post-AL era (yes mid 90's ok) we finally had rebuilt something over a DECADE (because that's how long it takes) but now we're running a real danger of plunging back into another 20 years of "meh" - were we're excited to make the tourney once every four years.  Just five years ago we were on the cusp of being a blue-blood.  Think we're still there now?

Did you see what happened with attendance with the JUST WIN BABY mentality?  It was dropping.  Secondly, we are a university.  I don't mean to be curt here, but the folks running this university have a job to run it as a university, not a minor league sport.  If you want the just win baby approach, MU may not be the school for you to cheer on in the future because that mentality is not going to be embraced.  Instead, we will spend considerable resources to win, be competitive, strive to win conference titles, represent well nationally, but it will not be to the point of risking MU's reputation, etc that often comes with the JUST WIN BABY attitude.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, a bit of hyperbole - what are message boards for?  But if anything that builds my point - from 1993-2013 we were a force - 18 post-season appearances in 20 years, and a stretch of 8 straight NCAA.  Maybe not tier-one blue-blood, and not quite Al-Raymonds-esque but that kind of consistency gets close to the big boys - e.g. on the cusp (esp since we were bringing the money to the table to sustain the success). 

I guess I'm just still stung over "losing" Shaka - he was the caliber coach we should have been able to land.  You think he'd be missing the post-season two years in a row? (I mean we need 5 more wins for a reasonable shot at the NIT - looking tougher)  We didn't get him, I get it, and it's not fair to judge Wojo to the same standard.  So maybe I've been unfair here - Wojo isn't necessarily falling short of expectation - MU fell short of expectations in making their post-Buzz hire.  And I get it - even the UCLAs and IUs of the world have down stretches - but when you get excited all year for the prospect of the upcoming season it's disheartening when you're "playing for pride" in 3 consecutive febs.  (And who knows - maybe I'm chicken littleling and they'll run off 9 straights and ride the momentum all the way to the final four.  Again, very very happy to eat crow pie if that happens).   

We haven't been able to land a Shaka type coach....EVER.  Look at our hires.   Assistant coaches, or guys from small schools like Belmont Abbey.   Look, I absolutely wanted MU to land a guy like him...and MU tried...but MU never seems to get those types of coaches.  So, we get young, hungry coaches who learn on the job.  It has most often worked out well.   

End of the day, we're better than last year, trending the right direction, we continue to sign good recruits, so let's see what happens.  We clearly need better PG play, better shooters in general.  It will come.  If it doesn't, than he won't be here and someone else will.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

In my opinion,  if one is to use the basketball program to help market the university and the quality of the school, we should aspire to put the product in as best a light as possible.  MU is a private school, costs a considerable amount of money to attend and there is a perceived value for that money spent.

Now, not everyone agrees with this. UConn is a good school, G'Town is a good school, both basketball programs have taken their share of guys that quite frankly didn't belong academically in the parking lot of the school.  Different strokes for different folks.  I admire what Stanford does, UCLA, Duke, Notre Dame, etc.  Yup, exceptions at all of those schools, but by and large I believe it helps in the overall reputation of the school, it also helps the kids that are playing for those schools because they come out with folks knowing these kids are not only quality athletes, but are prepared intellectually.  They weren't there just to play a game.  In the end, that's a huge benefit to those kids for many reasons.

My two cents, many will disagree.

thanks

[bilsu]

Some perspective. Sitting in equivalent seats to watch Maurice Lucas play at the old Mecca cost $4.50 and the program cost 0.35. The year before they were $4 and .25. You also had your seats for life, with none of this reseating hassle. Now I pay a $700 per seat donation and the ticket price is $30.10. No need to buy a program, because you can see the statistics on the score board. My tuition, living at home, was $2,000 a semester. Very few, if any, home games were on TV. I am thinking about dropping my tickets. I can save a lot of money, especially when you add in the cost of driving from Sheboygan and that I have been donating another $3,000 plus a year to keep me near the 93rd percentile. My fear is that they stop putting the home games on TV after I drop my tickets. I had previously decided I would keep my tickets until the first season in the new arena. Now, the team is so bad that I may not bother to wait for the new arena.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Some perspective. Sitting in equivalent seats to watch Maurice Lucas play at the old Mecca cost $4.50 and the program cost 0.35. The year before they were $4 and .25. You also had your seats for life, with none of this reseating hassle. Now I pay a $700 per seat donation and the ticket price is $30.10. No need to buy a program, because you can see the statistics on the score board. My tuition, living at home, was $2,000 a semester. Very few, if any, home games were on TV. I am thinking about dropping my tickets. I can save a lot of money, especially when you add in the cost of driving from Sheboygan and that I have been donating another $3,000 plus a year to keep me near the 93rd percentile. My fear is that they stop putting the home games on TV after I drop my tickets. I had previously decided I would keep my tickets until the first season in the new arena. Now, the team is so bad that I may not bother to wait for the new arena.

Yup, but in 1974 the average income in this country was $9,668.  A House cost $47,432.  Stuff cost a lot less back then, but you also made a lot less on average back then, too.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Most of the commentary is really laughable.  Come on. We are talking about Marquette basketball.  Something we all love.  We have a very talented young team and coaching staff.  Patience everyone.  They will be fine.  Give them time.  The Big East is brutal.  We will be okay.

[GGGG]

Some perspective. Sitting in equivalent seats to watch Maurice Lucas play at the old Mecca cost $4.50 and the program cost 0.35. The year before they were $4 and .25. You also had your seats for life, with none of this reseating hassle. Now I pay a $700 per seat donation and the ticket price is $30.10. No need to buy a program, because you can see the statistics on the score board. My tuition, living at home, was $2,000 a semester. Very few, if any, home games were on TV. I am thinking about dropping my tickets. I can save a lot of money, especially when you add in the cost of driving from Sheboygan and that I have been donating another $3,000 plus a year to keep me near the 93rd percentile. My fear is that they stop putting the home games on TV after I drop my tickets. I had previously decided I would keep my tickets until the first season in the new arena. Now, the team is so bad that I may not bother to wait for the new arena.

They're not going to stop putting home games on television.  Pretty much every game in every major sport is televised these days sell out or not.

[MU82]

We haven't been able to land a Shaka type coach....EVER.  Look, I absolutely wanted MU to land a guy like him...and MU tried...but MU never seems to get those types of coaches.

Maybe Shaka is squirmy.

[LAZER]

I think he meant going to P5 conference (ACC) & working with his buddy in the Athletic department who will let Buzz do whatever he wants.

That it isn't what Hilltopper posted about, he was referencing the interest MU basketball.

[mu_hilltopper]

Fair points. Here's my counter:

In 2-1/2 years, the new arena will open. Ticket sales will go back up, at least temporarily, from fans curious to see the new venue both in terms of STHs and casual walk-up fans.

In general, we will be a lower cost alternative to basketball fans that want to watch games in a state-of-the-art NBA facility without paying NBA prices.

If we are winning, the fans will stay. ..

It's tough to tell what'll happen with the new arena. 

Suffice it to say .. STHs will go down again next year, barring a miracle finish.

On the one hand .. by 2017, so many STHs will have thrown in the towel only the super die-hards will be left.  But if ticket prices go up substantially .. I could see some thinking that's the time to make a clean break too.  Honestly, hard to predict that future.  Probably a flat year.

I think it's a good bet that walk-up sales will be higher, though.  There's a large pool of fans (or former STHs) who will be interested in hitting a few extra games at the new stadium.   The new stadium will have more lower bowl seats, making them far less scarce than today .. leading the secondary market to be awash in high quality seats.

I'd love to know more about the stats from the ticket office on .. the avg. age of a new STH .. and the avg. longevity of a dropper.    I'd guess most new STHs are young alums who yearn for that great experience .. but that pool is much, much smaller today than 5 years ago.  Gonna take years of success to rebuild those numbers.

[forgetful]

This may have been posted in this thread already, but the fact that this is even a question (Are we better than last year?), when we are starting 3 freshman, including our PG is really a tribute to the fact that we are on the right track.

[Meathead]

This may have been posted in this thread already, but the fact that this is even a question (Are we better than last year?), when we are starting 3 freshman, including our PG is really a tribute to the fact that we are on the right track.

Context:

1 of the freshman is a McDonald's All American and continues to be a consensus lottery pick - and certainly is better than Juan Anderson.

Our freshman PG is already better than our PG of the last two seasons.

Cheatham looks like a good prospect.

If we finish with fewer than 6 Big East wins, this season will have been a train wreck comparative to the talent on the roster.  Wojo has been all over the place with his substitutions of late.  Anyone else beyond baffled as to why Traci Carter only played 13 minutes against DePaul as we floundered to a 56 point finish?

[jesmu84]

Context:

1 of the freshman is a McDonald's All American and continues to be a consensus lottery pick - and certainly is better than Juan Anderson.

Our freshman PG is already better than our PG of the last two seasons.

Cheatham looks like a good prospect.

If we finish with fewer than 6 Big East wins, this season will have been a train wreck comparative to the talent on the roster.  Wojo has been all over the place with his substitutions of late.  Anyone else beyond baffled as to why Traci Carter only played 13 minutes against DePaul as we floundered to a 56 point finish?

1. I'm not sure how you can compare Henry to Juan honestly.

2. Disagree.

3. "good prospect" for what?

[The Lens]

In my opinion,  if one is to use the basketball program to help market the university and the quality of the school, we should aspire to put the product in as best a light as possible.  MU is a private school, costs a considerable amount of money to attend and there is a perceived value for that money spent.

Now, not everyone agrees with this. UConn is a good school, G'Town is a good school, both basketball programs have taken their share of guys that quite frankly didn't belong academically in the parking lot of the school.  Different strokes for different folks.  I admire what Stanford does, UCLA, Duke, Notre Dame, etc.  Yup, exceptions at all of those schools, but by and large I believe it helps in the overall reputation of the school, it also helps the kids that are playing for those schools because they come out with folks knowing these kids are not only quality athletes, but are prepared intellectually.  They weren't there just to play a game.  In the end, that's a huge benefit to those kids for many reasons.

My two cents, many will disagree.

Don't worry MU will continue to Facebook, tweet & Instagram Jae, Jimmy, DJO & Vander  everyday tho.

Because you know. The era was squirmy but the results were great.