Making a murder

[Vander Blue Man Group]

the German guy discussed on Reddit who's wife found burnt lace panties in his possession

Yep, that was it.  If there is any truth to that story and it wasn't checked out because they had "their guy" it is egregious.  As much as they clearly hate Avery, you think they'd want to be absolutely sure that a murderer wasn't still out there. 

[brewcity77]

Yep, that was it.  If there is any truth to that story and it wasn't checked out because they had "their guy" it is egregious.  As much as they clearly hate Avery, you think they'd want to be absolutely sure that a murderer wasn't still out there.

Yeah, but this is the same sheriff's department that had confirmation from another law enforcement agency that Avery was wrongly convicted and they had left someone guilty of sexual assault on their streets for a decade and they suppressed that information for 8 more years, so I can't say I have much faith in Manitowoc caring if they get criminals off their streets.

[rocket surgeon]

                       just saw the part where the evidence from 1985 was clearly tampered with.  small styrofoam container with it's tape seal broken and the box that contained it with it's tape seal clearly violated.  the vial of blood was penetrated with a syringe-like device as noted by the puncture mark through the rubber cap-hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........stay tuned?

[jsglow]

                       just saw the part where the evidence from 1985 was clearly tampered with.  small styrofoam container with it's tape seal broken and the box that contained it with it's tape seal clearly violated.  the vial of blood was penetrated with a syringe-like device as noted by the puncture mark through the rubber cap-hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........stay tuned?

Very damning evidence of malfeasance.  And remember, that wasn't some re-enactment.  I guess I'm not sure why (maybe it was and we just don't know) the tape of that wasn't shown at trial.  It makes the entire prosecution case suspect because any 3rd grader can understand exactly what happened.  Couple that with the 3 swabs vs. 6 issue and the fact that the failure to detect the blood preservative doesn't necessarily means it's not present testimony......

This guy may have done it be a re-trial is clearly in order based on what I've seen.

[77ncaachamps]

And some point in the docu series, I wondered that so many possible civil employees and now state employees were caught in this mess - either directly or indirectly - that the prosecution HAD to push forward AND be supported or they ALL look bad.

They say small town politics is different from big town politics, but when it comes to power, pride, and purpose, they are very, very similar.

[mu03eng]

Wife and I are two and a half episodes in and it is a very compelling documentary. Regardless of Avery's guilty or innocence, I do think it is an excellent example of how the deck can be stacked against a citizen simply because the weight of the government says he/she is the one.

I do find it very interesting the comment from the poster from Manitowoc, there is clearly a bias in the town against the Avery's that is even stronger than the documentary implies, certainly makes things more believable that there could be a conspiracy. And it seems fair to say his rape conviction in 1985 was a de facto conspiracy whether intentional or not.  Very curious to see how the rest of the documentary turns out.

[Sir Lawrence]

Some of us older dudes will recall Professor Marc Griesbach, who taught philosophy at Marquette for decades and was Chairman of the Athletic Board for years.  His many children are all very successful, including William Griesbach, a Federal Court Judge in Green Bay.

Another son, Michael Griesbach, a Marquette lawyer, wrote on the Avery cases.  He is currently an assistant DA in Manitowoc County, and ruffled a lot of local feathers with this book.  It's a good and easy read, if any are interested:

The Innocent Killer: A True Story of a Wrongful Conviction and its Astonishing Aftermath

Amazon link:  http://www.amazon.com/Innocent-Killer-Conviction-Astonishing-Aftermath/dp/1627223630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451926004&sr=8-1&keywords=Griesbach

[StillAWarrior]

Wife and I are two and a half episodes in and it is a very compelling documentary. Regardless of Avery's guilty or innocence, I do think it is an excellent example of how the deck can be stacked against a citizen simply because the weight of the government says he/she is the one.

I do find it very interesting the comment from the poster from Manitowoc, there is clearly a bias in the town against the Avery's that is even stronger than the documentary implies, certainly makes things more believable that there could be a conspiracy. And it seems fair to say his rape conviction in 1985 was a de facto conspiracy whether intentional or not.  Very curious to see how the rest of the documentary turns out.

Two episodes in.  Fascinating stuff.  I know very little about the case, so I'm trying to be careful about what I read...don't want to know too much before it unfolds on the show.

[Spotcheck Billy]

We watched this over the weekend, while it is compelling as presented I can't buy that the sheriffs dept. would have killed Halbach in order to frame Avery. This leaves me thinking no way any actual killer not named Avery would be able to leave the evidence conveniently on Avery property for the cops to find and use against Avery, granted the finding of the key IS troubling as well as the lack of investigating the roommate and ex-boyfriend.

Kratz has now given interviews stating that Avery's sweat DNA was found under the hood of the RAV4 and that was introduced in the trial, the makers have not commented if that is true.

BTW, Halbach's brother (seen often as the family spokesman) has worked for the Packers for the last 12 years.

[StillAWarrior]

4) This is a filmmaker's dream.  You're doing this nice little documentary on the wrongful imprisonment of a guy and BANG, right in the middle this story happens right in front of you.  You already have the family's trust and keep going allowing events to take you wherever.  My kid would kill for this.  But knowing what I know about making these things,  95% of the real time film is on the editing room floor.  Just remember that as you watch.

I'm obviously not doing a very good job being careful about what I read before I finish the series...

I found this article interesting.  I figured that the filmmakers were already involved before the murder.  Apparently not.

[brandx]

Wife and I are two and a half episodes in and it is a very compelling documentary. Regardless of Avery's guilty or innocence, I do think it is an excellent example of how the deck can be stacked against a citizen simply because the weight of the government says he/she is the one.

As a further, maddening example of this gov't overreach, I'd recommend "Dinosaur 13" on Netflix. Stunning what a prosecutor can do when he puts his mind to it.

[warriorchick]

Some of us older dudes will recall Professor Marc Griesbach, who taught philosophy at Marquette for decades and was Chairman of the Athletic Board for years.  His many children are all very successful, including William Griesbach, a Federal Court Judge in Green Bay.

Another son, Michael Griesbach, a Marquette lawyer, wrote on the Avery cases.  He is currently an assistant DA in Manitowoc County, and ruffled a lot of local feathers with this book.  It's a good and easy read, if any are interested:

The Innocent Killer: A True Story of a Wrongful Conviction and its Astonishing Aftermath

Amazon link:  http://www.amazon.com/Innocent-Killer-Conviction-Astonishing-Aftermath/dp/1627223630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451926004&sr=8-1&keywords=Griesbach

Yep.  There is a Griesbach (forgot which one) in the documentary.  That must be why I was saying, "Where have I heard that name before?'

[brewcity77]

We watched this over the weekend, while it is compelling as presented I can't buy that the sheriffs dept. would have killed Halbach in order to frame Avery. This leaves me thinking no way any actual killer not named Avery would be able to leave the evidence conveniently on Avery property for the cops to find and use against Avery, granted the finding of the key IS troubling as well as the lack of investigating the roommate and ex-boyfriend.

Kratz has now given interviews stating that Avery's sweat DNA was found under the hood of the RAV4 and that was introduced in the trial, the makers have not commented if that is true.

BTW, Halbach's brother (seen often as the family spokesman) has worked for the Packers for the last 12 years.

Definitely info that was left out of the documentary. However, the defense didn't assert the police killed Halbach, they merely asserted they framed Avery for the killing. What stood out to me was Colborn finding the RAV-4 days before it was found on the Avery property. Yes, he denied in court that he found it, but when you listen to the dispatch tape, that sure as hell sounded like a cop calling in a car he was looking at.

I'm not sure who killed her, but I have little doubt that Colborn (likely with Lenk) found the RAV-4 and possibly the body, moved it onto the property, added the blood from the vial, and framed Avery. The property they were on was huge. Another interesting note was the cremains being moved, they likely could have been burned on the Avery property at night without anyone there even realizing it, then moved to the two other burn locations.

No idea who killed her, but there's definitely enough there for reasonable doubt, and a ton of evidence to point towards a frame.

[jsglow]

Definitely info that was left out of the documentary. However, the defense didn't assert the police killed Halbach, they merely asserted they framed Avery for the killing. What stood out to me was Colborn finding the RAV-4 days before it was found on the Avery property. Yes, he denied in court that he found it, but when you listen to the dispatch tape, that sure as hell sounded like a cop calling in a car he was looking at.

I'm not sure who killed her, but I have little doubt that Colborn (likely with Lenk) found the RAV-4 and possibly the body, moved it onto the property, added the blood from the vial, and framed Avery. The property they were on was huge. Another interesting note was the cremains being moved, they likely could have been burned on the Avery property at night without anyone there even realizing it, then moved to the two other burn locations.

That's where I am with 3 episodes to go.

No idea who killed her, but there's definitely enough there for reasonable doubt, and a ton of evidence to point towards a frame.

[Jay Bee]

Yep.  There is a Griesbach (forgot which one) in the documentary.  That must be why I was saying, "Where have I heard that name before?'

Last year Griesbach was on True Murder, a podcast by a dude in Canada.. has authors on to talk about true crime books they've written.. a lot of these guys provide great insights.. the Griesbach interview was probably.. around a year and a half ago?? I'll try to find/add a link.. HERE. (free)

[warriorchick]

Crap.

Just did some LinkedIn stalking. 

Ken Kratz is a Marquette Law School Grad.


Len Kachinsky, however is got his degree from Bucky.

[Jay Bee]

Crap.

Just did some LinkedIn stalking. 

Ken Kratz is a Marquette Law School Grad.


Len Kachinsky, however is got his degree from Bucky.

No reason to 'crap' that.

Add me!!!

Seriously... Avery is a murdering nut.

[warriorchick]

No reason to 'crap' that.

Add me!!!

Seriously... Avery is a murdering nut.

Great. I will add both of you and you can both send me inappropriate messages.

[jsglow]

We wrapped it up tonight.  If Avery didn't do it, which by definition means that Brendan didn't do anything either, then I feel most sorry for the two moms who lost their innocent sons to the prison system.  As one of the defense team members said, you can guarantee that that you never commit a crime but you can NEVER guarantee that you'll never be accused. 

[Hards Alumni]

We watched this over the weekend, while it is compelling as presented I can't buy that the sheriffs dept. would have killed Halbach in order to frame Avery. This leaves me thinking no way any actual killer not named Avery would be able to leave the evidence conveniently on Avery property for the cops to find and use against Avery, granted the finding of the key IS troubling as well as the lack of investigating the roommate and ex-boyfriend.

Kratz has now given interviews stating that Avery's sweat DNA was found under the hood of the RAV4 and that was introduced in the trial, the makers have not commented if that is true.

BTW, Halbach's brother (seen often as the family spokesman) has worked for the Packers for the last 12 years.

Don't have to.  Grubby dude with dirty clothes laying around the house for 8 days while the cops roamed.

[Eldon]

I found the following links to be insightful:

http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/


And here are some original (i.e., pre-Making a Murderer) news stories from various newspapers from around Wisconsin:

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/archive.php?ac=t&forumid=122767&date=03-16-2009&t=796684-1

Relevant evidence that the documentary omits:
*Avery calls and specifically requests Halbach to come out, allegedly under a fake name
*Ballistic expert testifies on behalf of prosecution that the bullet found was fired from a gun in Avery's room.  Defense argues that the ballistic methods are dated, untrustworthy.
*Police recovered a pair of jeans from Brendan Dassey that were covered in bleach (Dassey told them that he and Steve Avery cleaned the floor of the garage thoroughly with bleach)

But even with this evidence and even if God Himself came down and told me that Avery is guilty, I still believe that he should be let go by virtue of the clearly-demonstrated police malfeasance (e.g., calling in the Rav4), to say nothing of the police negligence (eg, not considering alternative suspects).

[Spotcheck Billy]

After taking 10 years to make this I sure wish they would have taken more time than the prosecutor did to investigate alternative suspects. It almost seems that they did more of that in the rape conviction than the murder trial.

[jsglow]

I found the following links to be insightful:

http://decider.com/2015/12/31/the-5-best-making-a-murderer-fan-theories/


And here are some original (i.e., pre-Making a Murderer) news stories from various newspapers from around Wisconsin:

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/archive.php?ac=t&forumid=122767&date=03-16-2009&t=796684-1

Relevant evidence that the documentary omits:
*Avery calls and specifically requests Halbach to come out, allegedly under a fake name
*Ballistic expert testifies on behalf of prosecution that the bullet found was fired from a gun in Avery's room.  Defense argues that the ballistic methods are dated, untrustworthy.
*Police recovered a pair of jeans from Brendan Dassey that were covered in bleach (Dassey told them that he and Steve Avery cleaned the floor of the garage thoroughly with bleach)

But even with this evidence and even if God Himself came down and told me that Avery is guilty, I still believe that he should be let go by virtue of the clearly-demonstrated police malfeasance (e.g., calling in the Rav4), to say nothing of the police negligence (eg, not considering alternative suspects).

[/b]

I've read all that too.  Didn't know about the bleach jeans.  Couple to add include *67 calls to hide identity followed by 'regular' call at 5p possibly to set alibi.  Also the Avery restraints purchase some weeks prior.  I'm not saying Avery didn't do it but I remain convinced that the sheriff's office at a minimum piled 'extra' evidence to make sure this conviction stuck.  I'm also convinced that Dassey's original PD (and investigator) were not jealously representing their client's interest as was their absolute duty, especially given Dassey's clear mental limitations.  Frankly, this would have been much cleaner had the trial been moved to Milwaukee where the entire community hadn't yet formed an opinion.  Avery started out with a presumption of 'guilty'. 

[CreightonWarrior]

Some of us older dudes will recall Professor Marc Griesbach, who taught philosophy at Marquette for decades and was Chairman of the Athletic Board for years.  His many children are all very successful, including William Griesbach, a Federal Court Judge in Green Bay.

Another son, Michael Griesbach, a Marquette lawyer, wrote on the Avery cases.  He is currently an assistant DA in Manitowoc County, and ruffled a lot of local feathers with this book.  It's a good and easy read, if any are interested:

The Innocent Killer: A True Story of a Wrongful Conviction and its Astonishing Aftermath

Amazon link:  http://www.amazon.com/Innocent-Killer-Conviction-Astonishing-Aftermath/dp/1627223630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451926004&sr=8-1&keywords=Griesbach

Any relation to Joe Griesbach at MUHS?

[Sir Lawrence]

Any relation to Joe Griesbach at MUHS?

Sibling