Well this is a good look for Milwaukee...

[Pakuni]

In a utopian world that's great, but when the cops put out a warning identifying recent robberies tied to a specific car, etc....well guess what, Utopia doesn't exist except for someone playing MMQB.

Except that's not what happened.

[ChicosBailBonds]

An equally good look for Milwaukee is the murder rate this year.  Suppose no one wants to chat about this heyyna?

[ChicosBailBonds]

We white people have it so tough in this country.

The go to silliest answer in the book.  Do they issue this to liberals as part of the kit? 

[Pakuni]

The go to silliest answer in the book.  Do they issue this to liberals as part of the kit?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm just enamored with your "white people have it so bad" broad statement.  Imagine someone here making a broad statement about another ethnic group or race and how you would come down on them.

Yes, all whites are the same, they all have the same education, social, economic structure, etc.   Breathtaking by you....seriously.

[GGGG]

Man topper, you love to come up with excuses for why a business in your town engages in despicable behavior.

So the jewelry store gets some calls about their closing time ("they didn't sound like legitimate customers") then an SUV with dealer plates shows up with four black men ("not their usual clientele"), and they lock the doors.  If I call the store asking about their hours, I probably would be given the right?  I'm sure I sound like a "legitimate customer."  Would they have locked the doors had four white men in suits stepped out of the SUV?  That is their "usual clientele" right?

They *were* legitimate customers, and they were going to be their *clientele.*  But even after that was clearly noted, the workers wanted the police to stick around why they looked at the watches.

How is that *not* racial profiling?  I mean...holy crap.  How can we ever get anywhere with racial issues when people like you seemingly make every excuse for the behavior.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Another really good look for Milwaukee is the awesome MPS system and the graduation rates among students...worst in the country by race. 

If some of you haven't figured out this is all intertwined, I can't help you.

[GGGG]

Another really good look for Milwaukee is the awesome MPS system and the graduation rates among students...worst in the country by race. 

If some of you haven't figured out this is all intertwined, I can't help you.

Shift goalposts.  Build strawmen.

This is what you do when you are *clearly* wrong about the topic at hand.  So much intellectual dishonesty. 

[Pakuni]

I'm just enamored with your "white people have it so bad" broad statement.  Imagine someone here making a broad statement about another ethnic group or race and how you would come down on them.

Yes, all whites are the same, they all have the same education, social, economic structure, etc.   Breathtaking by you....seriously.

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

Wait ... no, it isn't. It's nowhere remotely close to what I wrote.
What I wrote, Chico's, was a simple response to mock you and your never-ending quest to portray yourself and those like you (i.e. white, male, Christian, conservative and well off) as victims.
Victims of the media.
Victims of political correctness.
Victims of liberals.
Victims of the president.
Victims of unions.
Victims of minorities.
Victims of pretty much anyone who doesn't think or look just like you.

For guy who loves little more than to condescendlngly preach the "life is tough" mantra when it comes to others' misfortunes, you sure do whine a lot about how bad you've got it.
I mean, here we were having a discussion of racial profiling, and you think the real victims here are the white people who don't know whether they should be saying "black" or "African-American" and, why oh why, can't we go back to simpler time if your beloved 1950s when you could just call them "coloreds."
Poor, poor you.

[mu_hilltopper]

"Man, Sultan, you love to come up with excuses" as to why this is evil racial profiling, and not just a business understanding the risks of their business to theft, have been told by police to call, etc, etc.

They let Henson in before.  They didn't this time because of the circumstances and police advice.  The end.

How can we come together about race?  By having honest cases of racism which bear scrutiny, which we wholeheartedly agree exist.

[GGGG]

"Man, Sultan, you love to come up with excuses" as to why this is evil racial profiling, and not just a business understanding the risks of their business to theft, have been told by police to call, etc, etc.

They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned.  If you can't see what they meant by those phrases...well...that's sad.

[mu_hilltopper]

They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned.  If you can't see what they meant by those phrases...well...that's sad.

The police report says, quote: "He advised the employee that if the vehicle came back to call the station."   

It fails to mention all that "*if*" stuff you've written as fact (no less.)

Car showed up, so they called the station as directed.   

[GGGG]

I'm quoting how they described the occupants of the car during the initial 911 call. 

[mu_hilltopper]

That's groovy, except you said 'They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned. '

The police did no such thing, it did not happen.

This did:  "He advised the employee that if the vehicle came back to call the station."   

[GGGG]

That's groovy, except you said 'They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned. '

The police did no such thing, it did not happen.

This did:  "He advised the employee that if the vehicle came back to call the station."   

Ugh.  You are correct.  That is what the Police said.

But let's go through this again:

**On Friday, employees called the police saying they were receiving phone calls "people who didn't sound like legitimate customers," so they closed early.

**Henson showed up in the SUV, the police called in the plates and informed the manager that four black men exited the vehicle, to which the manager replied "that is not our normal clientele."

**The Police told them to call if the vehicle showed up again.

**When the vehicle showed up again, they called the Police and closed the store.

**When the police showed up, they figured out there was no harm.  Henson was not a criminal.  He was a legitimate customer

**Despite this, the store employees asked the police to stick around while Henson and his friends looked at the watches.  They refused.

So you are still seriously claiming that no racial profiling occurred here?  Not when the employees described the phone calls as from "not legitimate customers?"  When the manager said that black men where not "their usual clientele?"  Not when they asked the police to stick around even though it was established that there was no threat to the store?

It simply boggles my mind that someone can look at this incident and claim that no racial bias or profiling existed here.

[keefe]

This boils down to whether or not one would choose to patronize this business. Personally, I would never give them a penny. Because in my view they practice a very ugly, pernicious form of racism that is far harder to eradicate. The attitude of these people is similar to cockroaches at night: they come out under the cover of darkness but when the harsh light of scrutiny comes on they scatter back into their dank, moldering dens where it is safe to express distaste for the unfortunately pigmented.

Topper knows the owner and attests to his graciousness. But he has never addressed the man's attitude on race.

Sultan lays out the case for racial bias. I think Sultan carries the day.

For me, I will not patronize this shop but it was unlikely I ever would have - even if I were to live in that part of the world. So I hope others will eliminate them from consideration when it comes time to purchase a $10,000 time piece.

[Skatastrophy]

The Politics board being allowed on MUScoop is starting to leak onto the other boards. It sucks.

[4everwarriors]

This boils down to whether or not one would choose to patronize this business. Personally, I would never give them a penny. Because in my view they practice a very ugly, pernicious form of racism that is far harder to eradicate. The attitude of these people is similar to cockroaches at night: they come out under the cover of darkness but when the harsh light of scrutiny comes on they scatter back into their dank, moldering dens where it is safe to express distaste for the unfortunately pigmented.

Topper knows the owner and attests to his graciousness. But he has never addressed the man's attitude on race.

Sultan lays out the case for racial bias. I think Sultan carries the day.

For me, I will not patronize this shop but it was unlikely I ever would have - even if I were to live in that part of the world. So I hope others will eliminate them from consideration when it comes time to purchase a $10,000 time piece.

If a gold Rolex is 10Gs in Washin'ton, send me 5 of them. I'll pm my AmEx info, hey? Feel free to get one, on me too, for your trouble, Crash.

[Benny B]

Just out of curiosity... are mathematicians and statisticians considered racist, i.e. if one of these folks says, statistically, the man entering your jewelry store in Shorewood is more likely to be a criminal if he is black than if he were white or Asian, is that racist (presuming it's true)?

If your insurance company determines that the best course of action to protect yourself - from an actuarial standpoint - is to do 'A' if 'B' happens, is it a good idea to listen to what they say or should retail-level employees be trusted with the decision to exercise their own discretion?

In other words, consider the profile of your typical jewelry store employee here... we're not dealing with Ivy League graduates here.  They've probably been instructed ad nauseum on how to react in particular situations given that they may not be in an entirely rationale state when such a situation occurs.

Unless we want to start making everyone own up to his/her behavior.

[GGGG]

Just out of curiosity... are mathematicians and statisticians considered racist, i.e. if one of these folks says, statistically, the man entering your jewelry store in Shorewood is more likely to be a criminal if he is black than if he were white or Asian, is that racist (presuming it's true)?

Presuming that's true, then the mathematicians aren't racist.  They are simply citing stats.  But then using those stats to determine how to treat an individual *is* racial profiling by definition.  John Henson is an individual guy.  He shouldn't be grouped in with other individuals because of his race either positively or negatively. 

In other words, consider the profile of your typical jewelry store employee here... we're not dealing with Ivy League graduates here.  They've probably been instructed ad nauseum on how to react in particular situations given that they may not be in an entirely rationale state when such a situation occurs.

I really don't think the store instructs its employees to react a certain way if "their usual clientele" shows up.  If they do, then the problem is much worse than I think it is.

[jsglow]

Ugh.  You are correct.  That is what the Police said.

But let's go through this again:

**On Friday, employees called the police saying they were receiving phone calls "people who didn't sound like legitimate customers," so they closed early.

**Henson showed up in the SUV, the police called in the plates and informed the manager that four black men exited the vehicle, to which the manager replied "that is not our normal clientele."

**The Police told them to call if the vehicle showed up again.

**When the vehicle showed up again, they called the Police and closed the store.

**When the police showed up, they figured out there was no harm.  Henson was not a criminal.  He was a legitimate customer

**Despite this, the store employees asked the police to stick around while Henson and his friends looked at the watches.  They refused.

So you are still seriously claiming that no racial profiling occurred here?  Not when the employees described the phone calls as from "not legitimate customers?"  When the manager said that black men where not "their usual clientele?"  Not when they asked the police to stick around even though it was established that there was no threat to the store?

It simply boggles my mind that someone can look at this incident and claim that no racial bias or profiling existed here.

I gave up on this thread long ago as I've provided my 2 cents and I agree completely with you Sultan.  But you may have given me a new bit of info I wasn't aware of.  Has it been established (or suggested) that the Friday red Tahoe visit at 5pm was by Henson and his friends and that they came back Monday?

[GGGG]

I gave up on this thread long ago as I've provided my 2 cents and I agree completely with you Sultan.  But you may have given me a new bit of info I wasn't aware of.  Has it been established (or suggested) that the Friday red Tahoe visit at 5pm was by Henson and his friends and that they came back Monday?

Yes. Here is the newscast.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/911-calls-released-from-schwanke-kasten-jewelers-alleged-profiling-incident-with-john-henson

[CreightonWarrior]

They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned.  If you can't see what they meant by those phrases...well...that's sad.

I was reading the WTMJ article today and FWIW, unless I'm reading it wrong, the "usual clientele" comment came from the dealership manager

In response, the store closed early that day. When Henson came by with friends the doors were already locked. An officer in an unmarked squad car ran the dealer plates on Henson’s red SUV. They were from Kunes Country Ford-Lincoln, but a manager at the dealership could not determine who the car belonged to. The officer says he told the manager “four black males excited the vehicle.”  To which the manager replied, “that’s not our normal clientele.”

[mu_hilltopper]

Ugh.  You are correct.  That is what the Police said.

...

So you are still seriously claiming that no racial profiling occurred here?  Not when the employees described the phone calls as from "not legitimate customers?"  When the manager said that black men where not "their usual clientele?"  Not when they asked the police to stick around even though it was established that there was no threat to the store?

It simply boggles my mind that someone can look at this incident and claim that no racial bias or profiling existed here.

Do I think the store is aware of their customer demographics, including race?  Of course.

The mere awareness of race does not equal acting on race alone, which is what all the headlines say: Jeweler calls 911 on black NBA player.   That headline leaves out the many factors at work here, police calls, potentially stolen plates, police advice. 

Most importantly, we know that they previously buzzed Henson into the store without those factors.

Did "no racial bias ..exist here"?  Is that what we need to calculate here, zero or anything north = "racial profiling"?  That they are aware of the demographics of their customer base means it's north of zero, no one can disagree.

As you said, if mathematicians can cite statistics without being racist, can criminologists cite them too?  Or recommend actions based on them?  Would it be reasonable for a criminologist to say "There is an increased risk of crime when your business is visited by customers outside of your usual customer base"?

We both know that's entirely reasonable, but I'm sure you'll fight it on the basis that it's a slippery slope.  And truly, I couldn't entirely disagree. 

But somehow, people need to move and act in our world, and they do it by evaluating factors at their disposal.  We don't live in a world blind of race, and knowing that, we need to have some tolerance that racial factors are likely never zero.  So when you do plant the "racial profiling" flag, and when do you say "ok, here's 5 other factors and the behavior was reasonable."

Which is why I'd agree with you if there wasn't a potentially stolen Tahoe or police advice, etc.   If they just called 911 because a tall black dude rang the bell, that'd be intolerable. 

But that was not the case.

I was reading the WTMJ article today and FWIW, unless I'm reading it wrong, the "usual clientele" comment came from the dealership manager

I gotta say .. that quote's source is odd.  It wasn't in the police report, so where did it come from?  It's not like WTMJ interviewed Dixon or the officer, and they recited that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Shift goalposts.  Build strawmen.

This is what you do when you are *clearly* wrong about the topic at hand.  So much intellectual dishonesty.

How is this shifting the goalposts?  The topic is about a good look for Milwaukee.  There are all kinds of good looks for Milwaukee, I'm merely adding to them.

I could start 5 different threads if you wish and we could get into each one, but this notion that this incident itself is a "good look" for Milwaukee when the city has plenty of ills over the years is laughable.