Have To Tell It Like It is

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being in the #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Deonte WAS given an opportunity last season and especially this season. I'm sure both coaches would have loved for him to come in dominate and play great at both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately, he was inconsistent, especially this season.

I love the kid's potential, and I really wish he would have stayed.

BUT, I can't blame his transfer on the coach not playing him. You get the minutes you earn. Deonte had opportunities, but couldn't capitalize.

Best of luck to him. I think he's going to be a really good college player.

[ecompt]

Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being  #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Deonte was given every chance to succeed. All he had to do was show his coaches in practice he was better than the other forwards on the team. He didn't do that, and his absolute refusal to rebound or play D limited his opportunities. He will be successful if he winds up at a school where he can shoot 25 times a game.

[MerrittsMustache]

Deonte WAS given an opportunity last season and especially this season. I'm sure both coaches would have loved for him to come in dominate and play great at both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately, he was inconsistent, especially this season.

I love the kid's potential, and I really wish he would have stayed.

BUT, I can't blame his transfer on the coach not playing him. You get the minutes you earn. Deonte had opportunities, but couldn't capitalize.

Best of luck to him. I think he's going to be a really good college player.

Cue Ners talking about how players need extended runs of playing time to produce and slipping in a mention of Dawson's game against GT...

[GGGG]

First thought, I suspect this could be one of those things Wojo looks back on and thinks he could have handled better. It was a big deal that he kept the entire team together after Buzz abandoned them. Wojo planted his flag on keeping the team together, and now that some are splintering apart, it looks like a chink in the armor. I'm confident we'll be fine in the long run, but I think this (like Buzz with Newbill) is something he will look back on as a more experienced coach and think "I could have done that better."

I think everyone needs to calm the f*ck down a little and read this paragraph.

I am as guilty as anyone for jumping on TW here, but all he seems to be saying is that it could have been communicated better.  That what the players may have been told regarding their role may not have matched that reality.  As brew said, planting the flag to keep the team together sounded good at the time, but I wonder if that lead to different expectations in the player's eyes.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Cue Ners talking about how players need extended runs of playing time to produce and slipping in a mention of Dawson's game against GT...

I'm not getting into the dawson stuff. I have nothing insightful to add to that wonderful topic.

But, Burton was my favorite player, and even I could see that he wasn't very good at basketball right now.

Personally, I would LOVE for him to take the rest of the year off and come back to MU, but I know that isn't likely.

I can't imagine losing a parent at his age, and my guess is that it's been very hard for him to maintain the focus required to succeed this season.

Super nice kid (when I met him for 5min), hope he does well.

[NersEllenson]

Deonte WAS given an opportunity last season and especially this season. I'm sure both coaches would have loved for him to come in dominate and play great at both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately, he was inconsistent, especially this season.

I love the kid's potential, and I really wish he would have stayed.

BUT, I can't blame his transfer on the coach not playing him. You get the minutes you earn. Deonte had opportunities, but couldn't capitalize.

Best of luck to him. I think he's going to be a really good college player.

Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being  #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Whole post is spot on, but the bolded is the funniest part emerging from all of this. I know there's a lot more to defense than steals. But our entire defense this season is predicated on generating turnovers. So what did we do? Benched a player with needed offensive skills who generates steals at the highest rate on the team, in lieu of a horrid offensive player who generates the LEAST amount of steals on the team but is generally good at looking like he tries hard (great, good for him, don't care if it doesn't produce anything). The end result was to basically force a promising young player who by all accounts was a great kid off the team. The whole thing is completely warped.

[GGGG]

Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

Ners, as your sponsor, I am suggesting that you may want to take a few steps back a little.  I like that you were focusing on the communication aspect of the issue earlier, but if you go down this road, you might end up where you said you didn't want to go just a day ago.

Think about the children.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

Alright, I have ABSOLUTELY NO inside information, but I'll say this:
(As the son of a longtime coach)

My dad never benched or screamed a kid for a physical mistake. But, if you made consistent mental errors, you wouldn't get much playing time.

So, I don't know what Burton's specific errors were this season, but he generally looked lost, and then found himself on the bench. My guess is that he was making mental mistakes, not necessarily physical mistakes, and that's what limited his playing time. Tough for a coach to let a kid play through "mental mistakes" because they aren't magically going to go away.

With Dawson, I have no insight.

[GGGG]

Whole post is spot on, but the bolded is the funniest part emerging from all of this. I know there's a lot more to defense than steals. But our entire defense this season is predicated on generating turnovers. So what did we do? Benched a player with needed offensive skills who generates steals at the highest rate on the team, in lieu of a horrid offensive player who generates the LEAST amount of steals on the team but is generally good at looking like he tries hard (great, good for him, don't care if it doesn't produce anything). The end result was to basically force a promising young player who by all accounts was a great kid off the team. The whole thing is completely warped.

Here is what I find warped:

1. The idea that you give time to players who haven't deserved it because of potential.

2. That we are now on the second coach that seems to agree with my first point, yet Joe Blow message board poster thinks both were off base.

If you want to criticize Wojo for his communication.  For not being completely honest about performance vis a vis playing time, then I am willing to listen.  But if you are going to say "well he is more talented, therefore he simply deserved it,"  I am not going to take you very seriously.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Ners, as your sponsor, I am suggesting that you may want to take a few steps back a little.  I like that you were focusing on the communication aspect of the issue earlier, but if you go down this road, you might end up where you said you didn't want to go just a day ago.

Think about the children.

Why should Ners stay silent on this? The new narrative is patently absurd, and he's absolutely right. The same people who advocate for Derrick are holding Deonte and others to a ridiculous standard of dominance on both ends of the court. It's insane. Completely insane.

[MerrittsMustache]

Alright, I have ABSOLUTELY NO inside information, but I'll say this:
(As the son of a longtime coach)

My dad never benched or screamed a kid for a physical mistake. But, if you made consistent mental errors, you wouldn't get much playing time.

So, I don't know what Burton's specific errors were this season, but he generally looked lost, and then found himself on the bench. My guess is that he was making mental mistakes, not necessarily physical mistakes, and that's what limited his playing time. Tough for a coach to let a kid play through "mental mistakes" because they aren't magically going to go away.

With Dawson, I have no insight.

Agree 100%.

[Aughnanure]

Think about the children.

[MUfan12]

If you want to criticize Wojo for his communication.  For not being completely honest about performance vis a vis playing time, then I am willing to listen.  But if you are going to say "well he is more talented, therefore he simply deserved it,"  I am not going to take you very seriously.

The communication bit is laughable. Here's what Wojo said to the JS, and my bet is that's filtered compared to what was said in practice:

"I don't know if anything went wrong," Wojciechowski said. "I think there were other guys that were playing better than him. We were eight games into the season, so to make a judgment on how the rest of the 20-plus games would go I think it's a little bit too early to judge. But at this point in the season we had other guys that when they're on the court our team plays better collectively."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why should Ners stay silent on this? The new narrative is patently absurd, and he's absolutely right. The same people who advocate for Derrick are holding Deonte and others to a ridiculous standard of dominance on both ends of the court. It's insane. Completely insane.

No. No. No.

I'll clarify:

I'm sure both coaches (Buzz and Wojo) would have LOVED for Deonte to be awesome from day 1 and force them to bench (insert player) permanently.

Deonte has some holes in his game (like most players), so they had to limit his playing time.

Perfectly logical.

[GooooMarquette]

I think everyone needs to calm the f*ck down a little and read this paragraph.

I am as guilty as anyone for jumping on TW here, but all he seems to be saying is that it could have been communicated better.  That what the players may have been told regarding their role may not have matched that reality.  As brew said, planting the flag to keep the team together sounded good at the time, but I wonder if that lead to different expectations in the player's eyes.

I would agree with you if that was what TW's original post said.  But his exact words were:  "Wasting a year of Johns eligibility was not the right thing to do either. He should have been upfront and honest with that kid."  To me, that's calling Wojo a liar, because it indicates he wasn't "honest" with him.

Vague or unclear communications are one thing.  Outright dishonesty is completely another.  And TW's OP alleged the latter.

[wadesworld]

Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

You're right.  Buzz and Wojo have no idea who help the team win and who to play.  You do.

[MerrittsMustache]

Why should Ners stay silent on this? The new narrative is patently absurd, and he's absolutely right. The same people who advocate for Derrick are holding Deonte and others to a ridiculous standard of dominance on both ends of the court. It's insane. Completely insane.

No one is setting a standard of dominance on both ends of the court. Quite frankly, Deonte wasn't contributing much in any facet of the game, not just defensively. In 55% as many minutes, he has 57% more TOs than Derrick Wilson and Steve Taylor. He has 3 fewer rebounds than Cohen despite playing 31 more minutes. He has 6 total defensive rebounds on the season. He has 2 assists and 36 FGA in 129 minutes. That means, he averages a shot every 3.6 minutes and an assist every 64.5 minutes. He played over 70 consecutive minutes without an assist!

I'm not trying to attack Deonte. We all know that he has talent but his actual production has been very poor this season.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Here is what I find warped:

1. The idea that you give time to players who haven't deserved it because of potential.

2. That we are now on the second coach that seems to agree with my first point, yet Joe Blow message board poster thinks both were off base.

If you want to criticize Wojo for his communication.  For not being completely honest about performance vis a vis playing time, then I am willing to listen.  But if you are going to say "well he is more talented, therefore he simply deserved it,"  I am not going to take you very seriously.

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

[wadesworld]

No one is setting a standard of dominance on both ends of the court. Quite frankly, Deonte wasn't contributing much in any facet of the game, not just defensively. In 55% as many minutes, he has 57% more TOs than Derrick Wilson and Steve Taylor. He has 3 fewer rebounds than Cohen despite playing 31 more minutes. He has 6 total defensive rebounds on the season. He has 2 assists and 36 FGA in 129 minutes. That means, he averages a shot every 3.6 minutes and an assist every 64.5 minutes. He played over 70 consecutive minutes without an assist!

I'm not trying to attack Deonte. We all know that he has talent but his actual production has been very poor this season.

Sssshhh.  Buzz, Wojo, and you know nothing.  Ners knows.

[GooooMarquette]

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Exhibit A as to why you are not a D-1 coach.

[wadesworld]

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

I guess the Ellenson Family Reunion also knows more than Buzz and Wojo.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Alright, well, that's clear, and we can just agree to disagree.

Deonte is my favorite player, and he is supremely talented. But, I don't think that talent has translated into actual production (yet). Therefore, I understand why he's not getting 35mpg. When his talent creates production, he'll get playing time.

No real debate, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[jsglow]

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Thanks coach.

[Silkk the Shaka]

No one is setting a standard of dominance on both ends of the court. Quite frankly, Deonte wasn't contributing much in any facet of the game, not just defensively. In 55% as many minutes, he has 57% more TOs than Derrick Wilson and Steve Taylor. He has 3 fewer rebounds than Cohen despite playing 31 more minutes. He has 6 total defensive rebounds on the season. He has 2 assists and 36 FGA in 129 minutes. That means, he averages a shot every 3.6 minutes and an assist every 64.5 minutes. He played over 70 consecutive minutes without an assist!

I'm not trying to attack Deonte. We all know that he has talent but his actual production has been very poor this season.

Deonte is a threat to score. 50% from 2, 40% from 3, 77% from the line. Derrick is at 46% from 2, 22% from 3, and 38% from the line. Deonte's steal % is best on the team at 4.8%, Derrick's is the lowest by far with Steve Taylor at 1.6%. So Derrick doesn't turn it over. DOOOOOOOOON'T CAAAAAAAAAARE. We have 2 other PGs on the team. Play them instead in a standard 2 guard set and give a guy like Deonte burn at the 3/4 base of the zone.