Vander Blue/Deonte Burton freshman year stat lines

[jesmu84]

Whoa...what?

Buzz's defense is extended and aggressive.  Players need to know how and when to rotate.  They need to know where help will be and push players accordingly.  For a freshman, Vander understood a lot of what Buzz wanted on the defensive end of the floor and that is why he played nearly 20+ mpg.  Offensively he was a mess.  Defense is why he was there.

This isn't news.  It was said as much at the time.  I remember reading comments about his defense from his Team USA coaches before he even got to Marquette.

Did you enjoy the video enough to make a name change?

[Nevada233]

Vander should be a Senior at Marquette...

Just got sent back the D-league... but he was re-acquired by the 87ers...

His Post MU Career has been uglier than bowling shoes....

Advice to underclassmen... Unless your a LOCK at the Lottery.... STAY IN SCHOOL

[Nevada233]

Oh and go MU...

[GGGG]

Did you enjoy the video enough to make a name change?

Yes.  It describe my more laid back attitude.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I have to believe there are other factors that go into PT rather than just playing in the system. Yes, Vander was obviously an above average overall defender and that contributed to PT, but there must have been, there just must have been other factors that contributed to his PT--like a recruitment promise, or Buzz seeing offesnive prowess in practice and waiting to see it in games.

It was a recruitment promise. Dameon Mason was arguably a better player as a freshman than Vander and he vanished after leaving MU. These people claiming there were some nuances to his game than only the sophisticated fan could see are full of sh*t. And sophomore Vander wasn't much better.

People sure do have short memories.

[GGGG]

It was a recruitment promise. Dameon Mason was arguably a better player as a freshman than Vander and he vanished after leaving MU. These people claiming there were some nuances to his game than only the sophisticated fan could see are full of sh*t. And sophomore Vander wasn't much better.

I wouldn't call good defense a "nuance."

[brandx]

I have to believe there are other factors that go into PT rather than just playing in the system. Yes, Vander was obviously an above average overall defender and that contributed to PT, but there must have been, there just must have been other factors that contributed to his PT--like a recruitment promise, or Buzz seeing offesnive prowess in practice and waiting to see it in games.

You're obviously a newbie when it comes to what Buzz is all about. If you actually believe what you wrote, then you have to believe that Buzz is a hustler & a charlatan.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

You're obviously a newbie when it comes to what Buzz is all about. If you actually believe what you wrote, then you have to believe that Buzz is a hustler & a charlatan.

Promising playing time isn't a hustle.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I wouldn't call good defense a "nuance."

Because that's what I said.

[GGGG]

Because that's what I said.

It certainly is what you implied.  Vander Blue played as a freshman because he understood what Buzz wanted on the defensive end of the floor.  It wasn't because of "some nuances to his game than only the sophisticated fan could see."

[MarsupialMadness]

Do you have an exerpt of Buzz saying this? I'm curious. Obviously, that's a trump card if you can provide it.

Buzz said in his radio show with Homer on 1/22 that our dilemma is that our best defensive team is our worst offensive team, and that he places a higher emphasis on defense than he does offense, as far as dishing out playing time.

I don't have a link.

[Windyplayer]

It certainly is what you implied.  Vander Blue played as a freshman because he understood what Buzz wanted on the defensive end of the floor.  It wasn't because of "some nuances to his game than only the sophisticated fan could see."

Recruitment promises aside, Buzz never really had to come to a crossroads with Blue and PT because Blue played pretty good defense in the system AND (A BIG "AND") because Buzz had a legitimate offense around Blue to hide that weakness in his game at the time. Blue's PT as a freshman was just as much a product of that offense around him as it was his defense.

Had the 2011 team had a down year offensviely, I highly doubt that a freshman who was struggling mightily with that half of his game,  would see the floor as often as he did.

Buzz isn't making these PT decisions in a vacuum based solely on what a player can and can't do (though arguments could be made for this year). There are a ton of variables that go into PT--match-ups, practice (cringe), game flow, weaknesses/strengths of teammates, etc.

[GGGG]

Recruitment promises aside, Buzz never really had to come to a crossroads with Blue and PT because Blue played pretty good defense in the system AND (A BIG "AND") because Buzz had a legitimate offense around Blue to hide that weakness in his game at the time. Blue's PT as a freshman was just as much a product of that offense around him as it was his defense.

Had the 2011 team had a down year offensviely, I highly doubt that a freshman who was struggling mightily with that half of his game,  would see the floor as often as he did.

Buzz isn't making these PT decisions in a vacuum based solely on what a player can and can't do (though arguments could be made for this year). There are a ton of variables that go into PT--match-ups, practice (cringe), game flow, weaknesses/strengths of teammates, etc.

I don't disagree with any of this....so I'm not sure exactly why you called me out twice in this thread.

If Vander didn't play defense like he did, he would not have played.  You are right that his offensive deficiencies could be covered up.  But that doesn't mean that my initial statement was incorrect.

[Windyplayer]

I don't disagree with any of this....so I'm not sure exactly why you called me out twice in this thread.

If Vander didn't play defense like he did, he would not have played.  You are right that his offensive deficiencies could be covered up.  But that doesn't mean that my initial statement was incorrect.

Perhaps, I wrongly implied that you thought Blue played his freshman year solely because of his defense. I'm arguing that Blue would have played a lot less if our offense was down that year, and that PT is based on a lot more than adhering to a game plan or doing a few things well.

[GGGG]

Perhaps, I wrongly implied that you thought Blue played his freshman year solely because of his defense. I'm arguing that Blue would have played a lot less if our offense was down that year, and that PT is based on a lot more than adhering to a game plan or doing a few things well.

Let me put it this way...if Blue's defense was like Deonte's defense, and without the offensive upside that Deonte has, Blue wouldn't have played 19 mpg as a freshman.  I agree with you that the reason he got up to 19 mpg was because you didn't have to rely on him offensively with DJO, JFB and eventually Jae and Davante on the floor.

[brandx]

Promising playing time isn't a hustle.

What would you call it?

[CTWarrior]

What would you call it?

A bad idea.  But it is not a hustle if a player is promised playing time and gets it.  A hustle would be promising someone playing time and then not giving it to them.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

What would you call it?

I call it recruiting highly rated players.

[brandx]

I call it recruiting highly rated players.

So you think Buzz is "promising" a guard playing time as a freshman when he already has Junior, DJO, and Buycks?

And as I said, if you believe Buzz is out there promising playing time to high school kids as freshmen, you do not know Buzz and you believe everything Buzz says publicly is just a hustle.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

So you think Buzz is "promising" a guard playing time as a freshman when he already has Junior, DJO, and Buycks?

And as I said, if you believe Buzz is out there promising playing time to high school kids as freshmen, you do not know Buzz and you believe everything Buzz says publicly is just a hustle.

Yes, I absolutely believe that and I don't think anything Buzz says is a hustle.

[94Warrior]

Well gee Ners, why don't you grace us with your significant HS basketball accomplishments?  Must have been a STAR. 

NERS......   We are waiting. 
I've grown tired of the debate about "The Promise", which is somehow still being argued despite the fact that Vander only started 12 games his freshman year.  (Lol, when you get owned, give it a rest.)

The only reason I am still reading this thread is to hear about Ners' accomplishments on the court.

[Windyplayer]

I think there is a happy medium. I think as the coach of a high-level DI program, Buzz is making promises to highly rated recruits--I don't know what those are, but I can guarantee you that when those promises are not met for one reason or another, and it may not necessarily be Buzz's fault, those players will think about transferring.

Recruiting is not a bunch of feel-good speeches about building character and turning boys into men. At some point, the rubber meets the road, and these recruits need to be assured that they'll get PT by a certain time or some other school will give it to them. I know everyone wants to think of Buzz as a monolith in morality and integrity, and he is as far as I know, and making a few promises to recruits doesn't undermine that. That's just how sh*t works in the world of big college basketball programs, at least anecdotally--you have to talk to the level of 17 and 18 year olds and tell them what they want to hear. Buzz does it and there's no shame in it.

I'm sure Buzz protects himself by conditioning promises on the kid's attitude, work ethic, etc., therby giving himself an out.

[brandx]

I think there is a happy medium. I think as the coach of a high-level DI program, Buzz is making promises to highly rated recruits--I don't know what those are, but I can guarantee you that when those promises are not met for one reason or another, and it may not necessarily be Buzz's fault, those players will think about transferring.

Recruiting is not a bunch of feel-good speeches about building character and turning boys into men. At some point, the rubber meets the road, and these recruits need to be assured that they'll get PT by a certain time or some other school will give it to them. I know everyone wants to think of Buzz as a monolith in morality and integrity, and he is as far as I know, and making a few promises to recruits doesn't undermine that. That's just how sh*t works in the world of big college basketball programs, at least anecdotally--you have to talk to the level of 17 and 18 year olds and tell them what they want to hear. Buzz does it and there's no shame in it.

I'm sure Buzz protects himself by conditioning promises on the kid's attitude, work ethic, etc., therby giving himself an out.

So you feel that Buzz thinks that playing time in college should be based on high school play?

[Windyplayer]

How on earth you deduced that from my post, I'll never know? In fact, I'm basically saying the exact opposite. It's not about what Buzz thinks, it's about what the system demands.

[brandx]

How on earth you deduced that from my post, I'll never know? In fact, I'm basically saying the exact opposite. It's not about what Buzz thinks, it's about what the system demands.

I'm only disagreeing when you say that Buzz is making promises about playing time to recruits. He has said specifically in the past that he doesn't do that.  He has said that playing time is earned - not given.