Where's the D-Wil love from Ners?

[NersEllenson]

Please specify the exact laboratory conditions under which Dawson should get his extended run time to verify his viability.  Holy crap, how could a point guard possibly play with 9 different players and be successful...the MADNESS!!!  Derrick played with 9 different players over the course of the game as well.

Lastly, and this is where I've turned on you from a passionate Dawson advocate to just an irrational guy

Hang our hat?  Really?  The group that tends to disagree with you has brought up Dawson's less than stellar performances in the Xavier, Butler, and a couple of other games.  Your response "but he got 30+ minutes at Georgetown and look how that turned out".  So if we are being "hat hangers" with last nights game that's only because we learned from you the professional.

I'm thinking I should add this to my signature "I support both DWil and Dawson, without malice or bias" and hope I can shed the slurper label  

The point as I've said 1000 times is that we've had 18 of 21 games with Derrick getting 30 and very similar results.  Essentially, he's failed 8 of 10 times against decent competition - last night and George Washington being the 2 times he's been good.

Regarding having 9 different guys rotated into your time running the point in just 3:32 - that's just wacky.  Most anyone who has played basketball at even just the high school level understands the value of consistent minutes, and playing with a consistent group of teammates.  Sure, you can sub a guy, two, or three in over the course of a 10 minute run of action....but 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's crazy.  It's not playing with 9 different guys over the course of 30-40 minutes....its playing with 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's just totally disjointed and allows for no flow to be gotten into by a team.

You are aware that most coaches shorten their bench/rotation to 8-9 guys in both college and pro, even though they have as many as 12-13 guys sitting on their bench.  I suspect there is a reason for that...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You are aware that most coaches shorten their bench/rotation to 8-9 guys in both college and pro, even though they have as many as 12-13 guys sitting on their bench.  I suspect there is a reason for that...

Is it because the guys on the end of the bench usually aren't as good?

[NersEllenson]

Is it because the guys on the end of the bench usually aren't as good?

Yes...and I'd say you can park Juan, Otule, Jake, and Derrick there....because Deonte, Gardner, JJJ/Todd, and Dawson are all better than those guys. 

It's insane when you have what should be two end of the bench players getting the most and 3rd most minutes on the team.

[g0lden3agle]

Yes...and I'd say you can park Juan, Otule, Jake, and Derrick there....because Deonte, Gardner, JJJ/Todd, and Dawson are all better than those guys. 

It's insane when you have what should be two end of the bench players getting the most and 3rd most minutes on the team.

By saying they are end of  bench players you are completely ignoring any concept of a depth chart.  Some of the lesser talented guys play more than more talented guys out of necessity of the skills that they are able to bring to the basketball court. 

You've gone from saying Dawson should get majority minutes to Dawson should be getting all the minutes...  This is hitting a critical point.

[MerrittsMustache]

Regarding having 9 different guys rotated into your time running the point in just 3:32 - that's just wacky.  Most anyone who has played basketball at even just the high school level understands the value of consistent minutes, and playing with a consistent group of teammates.  Sure, you can sub a guy, two, or three in over the course of a 10 minute run of action....but 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's crazy.  It's not playing with 9 different guys over the course of 30-40 minutes....its playing with 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's just totally disjointed and allows for no flow to be gotten into by a team.

First of all, Dawson played with 8 other players, not 9. Buzz subbed out 4 for 4. It's not like there were 8 different substitutions throughout the 3 minutes.

Second, Derrick started the second half and played with 7 different guys in 3:35. Didn't seem to have much of an effect on him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes...and I'd say you can park Juan, Otule, Jake, and Derrick there....because Deonte, Gardner, JJJ/Todd, and Dawson are all better than those guys. 

It's insane when you have what should be two end of the bench players getting the most and 3rd most minutes on the team.

I'm not talking about MU specifically, I'm just talking about your assertion on why rotations are shortened in the NBA and college.

I assume it's because the guys on the end of the bench aren't as good.

[NersEllenson]

By saying they are end of  bench players you are completely ignoring any concept of a depth chart.  Some of the lesser talented guys play more than more talented guys out of necessity of the skills that they are able to bring to the basketball court. 

You've gone from saying Dawson should get majority minutes to Dawson should be getting all the minutes...  This is hitting a critical point.

Sorry - Derrick should get 10-15 minutes and Dawson 25-30...

[g0lden3agle]

Sorry - Derrick should get 10-15 minutes and Dawson 25-30...

Ok a 15/25 split I can handle one way or another.  "Parking on the bench" read a lot more extreme to me than that.  How many minutes should Jake/Juan/Otule be getting in your opinion?

[NersEllenson]

First of all, Dawson played with 8 other players, not 9. Buzz subbed out 4 for 4. It's not like there were 8 different substitutions throughout the 3 minutes.

Second, Derrick started the second half and played with 7 different guys in 3:35. Didn't seem to have much of an effect on him.

Sorry...Dawson played with 9 guys in his 3:32 - - Juan, Steve, Deonte, JJJ, Otule, Todd, Jake, Gardner, Jamil.

And Derrick's stint was 4:58 seconds...with 7 different guys....and....he was -3 in that time.  Contrast that with the last 11:03 of the game when Derrick, Jake, Todd, Gardner and Jamil essentially got ALL the minutes - all of them were +6-8.  The consistency of playing time helps...yet what the consistent lineup/depth chart should be for 25-30 minutes:

Dawson/Derrick
Mayo/JJJ/Jake
Burton/Steve T
Jamil/Steve T
Gardner/Otule

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sorry - Derrick should get 10-15 minutes and Dawson 25-30...

I think Buzz is just going to ride the hot hand, so it's going to vary from game to game.

It's going to be like Otule/Gardner in previous years.

With this said, I have to give Dawson a lot of credit. He's gone from a DNP guy, to a guy who is getting regular minutes. I wasn't expecting that kind of growth in 1 season.

[GGGG]

The point as I've said 1000 times is that we've had 18 of 21 games with Derrick getting 30 and very similar results.  Essentially, he's failed 8 of 10 times against decent competition - last night and George Washington being the 2 times he's been good.

Regarding having 9 different guys rotated into your time running the point in just 3:32 - that's just wacky.  Most anyone who has played basketball at even just the high school level understands the value of consistent minutes, and playing with a consistent group of teammates.  Sure, you can sub a guy, two, or three in over the course of a 10 minute run of action....but 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's crazy.  It's not playing with 9 different guys over the course of 30-40 minutes....its playing with 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's just totally disjointed and allows for no flow to be gotten into by a team.

You are aware that most coaches shorten their bench/rotation to 8-9 guys in both college and pro, even though they have as many as 12-13 guys sitting on their bench.  I suspect there is a reason for that...

Do you have any clue what Buzz was trying to do yesterday?

Buzz started a longer, more athletic line up to completely f*ck with Cotton and disrupt the flow of Providence's offense.  And it worked.  Marquette went out to a huge lead...ran guys on and off the floor...kept up the pressure...and built a huge lead.

And that is someone a negative in your mind?  Seriously you just disparaged one of the main reasons Marquette won that game!

Buzz has often done this during his time here.  He apparently doesn't agree with your "extended run" theory.

[jesmu84]

The point as I've said 1000 times is that we've had 18 of 21 games with Derrick getting 30 and very similar results.  Essentially, he's failed 8 of 10 times against decent competition - last night and George Washington being the 2 times he's been good.

Regarding having 9 different guys rotated into your time running the point in just 3:32 - that's just wacky.  Most anyone who has played basketball at even just the high school level understands the value of consistent minutes, and playing with a consistent group of teammates.  Sure, you can sub a guy, two, or three in over the course of a 10 minute run of action....but 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's crazy.  It's not playing with 9 different guys over the course of 30-40 minutes....its playing with 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's just totally disjointed and allows for no flow to be gotten into by a team.

You are aware that most coaches shorten their bench/rotation to 8-9 guys in both college and pro, even though they have as many as 12-13 guys sitting on their bench.  I suspect there is a reason for that...

I really, really hate it when anyone says something like this about any individual player. It's a unnatural carnal knowledgeing team game.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sorry...Dawson played with 9 guys in his 3:32 - - Juan, Steve, Deonte, JJJ, Otule, Todd, Jake, Gardner, Jamil.

And Derrick's stint was 4:58 seconds...with 7 different guys....and....he was -3 in that time.  Contrast that with the last 11:03 of the game when Derrick, Jake, Todd, Gardner and Jamil essentially got ALL the minutes - all of them were +6-8.  The consistency of playing time helps...yet what the consistent lineup/depth chart should be for 25-30 minutes:

Dawson/Derrick
Mayo/JJJ/Jake
Burton/Steve T
Jamil/Steve T
Gardner/Otule

Actually, Taylor came out when Dawson came in for that stretch. Regardless, it doesn't really matter.

You've proven over and over and over and over and over and over again that you're going to discount everything positive that Derrick Wilson does and spin everything that Dawson does into something positive and/or have an excuse for why he played poorly or made a mistake. What's the point? What are you hoping to accomplish? Can't you just enjoy that Derrick played a really good game and Marquette won? Or is your desire to be right so great that you can't admit that a player you hope fails helped lead MU to a victory?

[mu03eng]

The point as I've said 1000 times is that we've had 18 of 21 games with Derrick getting 30 and very similar results.  Essentially, he's failed 8 of 10 times against decent competition - last night and George Washington being the 2 times he's been good.

Regarding having 9 different guys rotated into your time running the point in just 3:32 - that's just wacky.  Most anyone who has played basketball at even just the high school level understands the value of consistent minutes, and playing with a consistent group of teammates.  Sure, you can sub a guy, two, or three in over the course of a 10 minute run of action....but 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's crazy.  It's not playing with 9 different guys over the course of 30-40 minutes....its playing with 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's just totally disjointed and allows for no flow to be gotten into by a team.

You are aware that most coaches shorten their bench/rotation to 8-9 guys in both college and pro, even though they have as many as 12-13 guys sitting on their bench.  I suspect there is a reason for that...

I planned basketball at the high school level and continue to play in rec leagues and pick up leagues.  Depending on the team, consistency makes sense.  However, the style of play Buzz was going for last night, especially in the first half was a slight slower version of 40 minutes of hell.  He was running fresh legs out there and forcing Providence(with a very short bench) to adjust every time to the various line-ups...IT WAS PART OF THE STRATEGY.  So Buzz was rolling Dawson into the fold, and for consistency sake it was only 2 line-up iterations, 4 players for 4 players.

Missouri and UAB and Louisville to a certain extent when playing the pressure defense and offense can go 10-11 deep.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually, Taylor came out when Dawson came in for that stretch. Regardless, it doesn't really matter.

You've proven over and over and over and over and over and over again that you're going to discount everything positive that Derrick Wilson does and spin everything that Dawson does into something positive and/or have an excuse for why he played poorly or made a mistake. What's the point? What are you hoping to accomplish? Can't you just enjoy that Derrick played a really good game and Marquette won? Or is your desire to be right so great that you can't admit that a player you hope fails helped lead MU to a victory?

+ 10 gazillion

[NersEllenson]

Actually, Taylor came out when Dawson came in for that stretch. Regardless, it doesn't really matter.

You've proven over and over and over and over and over and over again that you're going to discount everything positive that Derrick Wilson does and spin everything that Dawson does into something positive and/or have an excuse for why he played poorly or made a mistake. What's the point? What are you hoping to accomplish? Can't you just enjoy that Derrick played a really good game and Marquette won? Or is your desire to be right so great that you can't admit that a player you hope fails helped lead MU to a victory?

What part of me giving my vote to Derrick for SOTG indicates I didn't feel he helped lead us to victory last night??  I'm glad we won.  Having said that, thought Cooley was an idiot for trying to press a team that is gonna be 4-5 in the halfcourt...and all the while only having 6 guys to play!!

What annoys me about you and some of the other hardcore Derrick backers are how you ignore the overall data of 21 games, with Derrick having been given amply opportunity, more opportunity than any other player on the team...and you defend the guy to death....yet Dawson gets limited, very fragmented run...and you draw all kinds of negative conclusions about his ability to help the team be better - even though the kid can make free throws and 3 point shots.  

[Hards Alumni]

What part of me giving my vote to Derrick for SOTG indicates I didn't feel he helped lead us to victory last night??  I'm glad we won.  Having said that, thought Cooley was an idiot for trying to press a team that is gonna be 4-5 in the halfcourt...and all the while only having 6 guys to play!!

What annoys me about you and some of the other hardcore Derrick backers are how you ignore the overall data of 21 games, with Derrick having been given amply opportunity, more opportunity than any other player on the team...and you defend the guy to death....yet Dawson gets limited, very fragmented run...and you draw all kinds of negative conclusions about his ability to help the team be better - even though the kid can make free throws and 3 point shots.  

You're learning very well from Chicos.

[GGGG]

What annoys me about you and some of the other hardcore Derrick backers are how you ignore the overall data of 21 games, with Derrick having been given amply opportunity, more opportunity than any other player on the team...and you defend the guy to death....yet Dawson gets limited, very fragmented run...and you draw all kinds of negative conclusions about his ability to help the team be better - even though the kid can make free throws and 3 point shots.  

Ugh...seriously?

No one is drawing "negative conclusions about (Dawson's) ability to help the team."  The people you label "hardcore Derrick backers" for the most part have acknowledged his shortcomings, AND suggested that Buzz should (and will) go with the hot hand, BUT don't think Dawson should be "given the keys" and play 30+ minutes a game.

That's all.

[mu03eng]

Ugh...seriously?

No one is drawing "negative conclusions about (Dawson's) ability to help the team."  The people you label "hardcore Derrick backers" for the most part have acknowledged his shortcomings, AND suggested that Buzz should (and will) go with the hot hand, BUT don't think Dawson should be "given the keys" and play 30+ minutes a game.

That's all.

After my rousing applause of this post, I'm done in this thread in particular, with Ners in general, and perhaps a Scoop vacation as well.

[Nevada233]

This Dawson/Derrick thing is getting old....

Im going with whoever is on the court.....

[Lennys Tap]

This Dawson/Derrick thing is getting old....

Im going with whoever is on the court.....

That's where the alleged Derrick side has always been. Welcome.

[BallBoy]

The point as I've said 1000 times is that we've had 18 of 21 games with Derrick getting 30 and very similar results.  Essentially, he's failed 8 of 10 times against decent competition - last night and George Washington being the 2 times he's been good.

Regarding having 9 different guys rotated into your time running the point in just 3:32 - that's just wacky.  Most anyone who has played basketball at even just the high school level understands the value of consistent minutes, and playing with a consistent group of teammates.  Sure, you can sub a guy, two, or three in over the course of a 10 minute run of action....but 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's crazy.  It's not playing with 9 different guys over the course of 30-40 minutes....its playing with 9 different guys in 3:32 - that's just totally disjointed and allows for no flow to be gotten into by a team.

You are aware that most coaches shorten their bench/rotation to 8-9 guys in both college and pro, even though they have as many as 12-13 guys sitting on their bench.  I suspect there is a reason for that...

If you didn't spew out falsities you might gain credibility in your position.    

Step 1:  Go to any sports website with a box score.  Count the games Wilson was 30+ vs the number of games he played.  It is 12 games out of 21 that he has played 30+.  In those games MU is 6-6.  Of the 6 losses 5 where to KenPom top 50.  2 wins were against the Top 50 including number 35 GW and Providence 48).  Georgetown is not in the top 50 (68).  

Step 2:  Why is it that playing with 9 different guys only impacted one of the two players.  

I will add MU is 6 and 3 against teams when he didn't play 30+ minutes.  Those 6 wins include:
Grambling State
New Hampshire
CS Fullerton
IUPUI
Ball State
Georgetown

The three games we lost include games against
Xavier
Creighton
NMU

Take out the cupcakes and MU is 1 and 3 when Wilson plays < 30+ minutes.   

Again MU's team record should not be used as a measure of judgement because this analysis shows that our record regardless of Wilson's amount of play doesn't reflect a better record when Wilson plays less.

All but one of MU's losses are in KenPom's Top 60.  Butler being the exception.   

[madtownwarrior]

I think Buzz is just going to ride the hot hand, so it's going to vary from game to game.

It's going to be like Otule/Gardner in previous years.

With this said, I have to give Dawson a lot of credit. He's gone from a DNP guy, to a guy who is getting regular minutes. I wasn't expecting that kind of growth in 1 season.

Whose hot hand was Buzz riding in the second half?

[GGGG]

Whose hot hand was Buzz riding in the second half?

Pretty obvious.  DW was playing well on both ends of the floor.

[tower912]

Once the upperclassmen came back in the game at the end of the 16-0 run, after the Friars had cut it to 37-34, where did MU get there 24 points from during the rest of the game?    (Hint:  the ones MU wanted to score.   Gardner, Jamil, Todd)   Derrick and Jake were out there because, like Buzz has said multiple times, they were playing the scouting report on defense.     See Cotton's comparative numbers elsewhere.     So, 3 guys to score, two to play good defense, all 5 have earned Buzz's trust in a tight game more than the freshmen.   Why is this so unlawful carnal knowledging difficult to understand?