Washington Redskins change their name

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, back in the "good old days" of slavery, men only with the vote, laws against interracial marriage and homosexuality as a disease (and a disease of choice, LOL) there were plenty of slaves who spoke kindly of their masters, women who thought suffrage should be for men only, blacks and browns who thought mixin' the races was evil and homosexuals in treatment for their "disease". Still some of those mixed up people out there, but they're way out of the mainstream, on the wacky fringes where they belong. I don't need a poll to tell me if its a good or a bad idea for our nations capital's football team to use a racial slur for their nickname. Or for Cleveland's baseball club to use a goofy caricature for their mascot. Just a brain and a conscience.

In addition, anyone who compares Chief Blackhawk to Chief Wahoo or a football team named after a man (Browns) to one with a by definition racial slur for a nickname never bought a ticket on the logic train. But I did love the detour sign from your "feminazi" handbook. Very cute.

Good try, your logic failed.  YOU were the one that brought up the poll as silly and absurd and YOU brought in how people would have categorized slavery and homosexuality.  Problem is, you used the entire population.  The SI poll and the University of Pennsylvania polls were the Native American populations only...not anyone else as your little analogy explained.

As for your voting and suffrage remark, voting at the polls was limited, not answering polls.

I like thy hypocrisy of the Blackhawks and the Indians.  There are Native Americans that say using their images IN ANY FORMAT as a mascot or representation is wrong.  Sounds like you are saying those Native Americans are wrong, they can't be upset, they can only be upset about SOME Native American imagery that you agree with.

How very white and mighty of you.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Keefe

Well done with Hanoi Jane and Cher.  Especially with those two and their hypocrisy on display all the time.  I was surprised you found an image of Cher, I had heard she moved to Europe from 2000 to 2008, maybe she returned.

[Coleman]

The most hilarious part about this thread is that its a bunch of middle aged, upper middle class white men waxing philosophic about the merits and faults of Native American mascots, as if we have some sort of real perspective on the issue.

Well, take that back, the most hilarious part is Chicos suggesting that the Super Mario brothers is somehow analogous to Native American mascots.

[swoopem]

The most hilarious part about this thread is that its a bunch of middle aged, upper middle class white men waxing philosophic about the merits and faults of Native American mascots, as if we have some sort of real perspective on the issue.

Well, take that back, the most hilarious part is Chicos suggesting that the Super Mario brothers is somehow analogous to Native American mascots.

Or that Irish people should be upset at Notre Dame for the Fighting Irish. Maybe we should change their name to the Redskins because everyone knows the Irish don't tan very well, we just get sunburnt.

[Lennys Tap]

I like thy hypocrisy of the Blackhawks and the Indians.  There are Native Americans that say using their images IN ANY FORMAT as a mascot or representation is wrong.  Sounds like you are saying those Native Americans are wrong, they can't be upset, they can only be upset about SOME Native American imagery that you agree with.

Since when is common sense hypocrisy? Kooks on both sides. Some offended by everything. Even worse, some (your camp) offended by nothing. I don't "agree with" or "disagree with" Native American imagery. I do, though, know the difference between an obvious caricature and a respectful artist's rendering. And I do know the difference between a term defined as a racial slur and ones that range from totally innocent to mildly distasteful. You don't (can't?) know the difference so any logical conclusion evades you as you go off on multiple tangents to obfuscate the obvious. You don't really think things through. Instead, you start from a position that any change in the social fabric is bad and then search for anyone and anything that might bolster your preconception. You're sadly a metaphor for our times, a hardliner much more interested in shouting "Look at me!" than one looking for logical solutions. Find an ultra safe district. Run for Congress. You'll fit in perfectly with crazies on either side of the aisle.

[keefe]

I have always enjoyed the British term for the French as "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys."

[jesmu84]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJKfs4ZnbNE

[Lennys Tap]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJKfs4ZnbNE

That was hilarious. And true.

[MU82]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJKfs4ZnbNE

Time for Chicos to defend "Redskins" and poor Dan Snyder from the mean liberal media, in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Doesn't matter, if someone is offended you said you would defend them.  Who are you to say who is privileged and who isn't? 

Now it sounds like what you are really saying is you will defend those who YOU feel are offended but only if YOU decide it is legitimate.

What if women decide they are fed up with the Vikings name, the Kings name, etc.  What if they are Native American women, not just WASP women.  Does that change your tune?

By the way, many Italians are going to disagree with your conjecture about who is privileged and who isn't.  Are whites from Appalachia privileged?  More whites in poverty (by double) than African Americans and significantly higher than Hispanics.  Yes, because there are more whites, doesn't change the numbers.  You're painting with too broad a brush again.

I am nobody. I don't decide who is considered privileged. Scholars and academics who are much smarter than either of us who have dedicating their lives to this subject have decided that.

Yes Italian are considered privileged because they are Caucasian. Yes white Appalachians are considered privileged because they are Caucasian. Poverty is not the exclusive factor in deciding privileged. But what you may not realize is that African American men are privileged because they are men. Hispanic heterosexuals are privileged because they are not LGBTQ. Most everybody has privileged of some sort....it's just at different levels for different parts of their identity. But because race is the most visible of identities it is usually the most dominate factor in determining privilege.

Also, I'm not sure what you meant by "yes, there are more whites, doesn't change the numbers." I think you are saying that despite a higher percentage of minority populations living in poverty there are physically more whites in poverty. For that I would say again that poverty isn't the only factor in determining privilege. I would also say that percentage gives a more accurate portrayal of the privilege at play in each race. If you were curious, the percentages are 27.4% of African Americans, 26.6% of Latinos, 25.3% of Native Americans, 12.1% of Asian Americans, and 9.9% of Whites.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Chicos, you dodged my last question. I am curious, what is your end goal? What is your motivation? Sometimes we get so caught up in the details that we don't see that we want the same thing. I know you mentioned preserving Native American tradition which is an extremely noble goal and one that I think we can all agree on. I also have been getting the feeling that you are worried about Native Americans being forced to give up the Redskins mascot if this change gets made. I would definitely agree with that point. I don't think it would be right to force that change.

So, why don't you want the Redskins to change?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Time for Chicos to defend "Redskins" and poor Dan Snyder from the mean liberal media, in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Did I hit your deadline?


I don't need to defend Redskins, the Native Americans do it every single day.  HBO, though they are my client, I wouldn't exactly call them centrists would you? 


In the meantime, I'm going to continue to acknowledge that Native American people are smart and can make their own decisions on what outrages them and what doesn't.  That means recognizing ALL of their opinions, not just the cherry picked ones.  Oh, and I'm not going to ignore the majority of them that find no problem with it and act high and mighty and pretend that they're stupid or just don't get it like us smart white guys...apparently only "SOME" Native Americans get it, but we're here to make sure the ones that don't are not going to suffer any longer.  Furthermore, I'm not going to be an epic hypocritical douche and say it's ok to wear a Blackhawk on my sweater as a white guy hockey fan when "many" Native Americans find that abhorrent, but scream how terrible it is that North Dakota Fighting Sioux is used as a nickname.  But to each their own.  In my view, wear the Blackhawk, and be proud of it.  Cheer for the Redskins, whether it is Washington or the Red Mesa High School (Native American) Redskins.  Cheer for the Celtics, for the Black Stars (Ghana's team) or the All Blacks (New Zealand), or whomever you wish.

Makes you wonder why no Native American poll has been done recently on the Redskins name....crickets.  Or, it has been done and they didn't like the result. 

[Coleman]

Did I hit your deadline?


I don't need to defend Redskins, the Native Americans do it every single day.  HBO, though they are my client, I wouldn't exactly call them centrists would you?  


In the meantime, I'm going to continue to acknowledge that Native American people are smart and can make their own decisions on what outrages them and what doesn't.  That means recognizing ALL of their opinions, not just the cherry picked ones.  Oh, and I'm not going to ignore the majority of them that find no problem with it and act high and mighty and pretend that they're stupid or just don't get it like us smart white guys...apparently only "SOME" Native Americans get it, but we're here to make sure the ones that don't are not going to suffer any longer.  Furthermore, I'm not going to be an epic hypocritical douche and say it's ok to wear a Blackhawk on my sweater as a white guy hockey fan when "many" Native Americans find that abhorrent, but scream how terrible it is that North Dakota Fighting Sioux is used as a nickname.  But to each their own.  In my view, wear the Blackhawk, and be proud of it.  Cheer for the Redskins, whether it is Washington or the Red Mesa High School (Native American) Redskins.  Cheer for the Celtics, for the Black Stars (Ghana's team) or the All Blacks (New Zealand), or whomever you wish.

Makes you wonder why no Native American poll has been done recently on the Redskins name....crickets.  Or, it has been done and they didn't like the result.  

If a Native American group asked the Blackhawks to change their logo, I would support the Blackhawks honoring that request. In the meantime, I am a Chicago hockey fan. I am going to wear the sweater. I find nothing hypocritical about that. As far as I know, no such requests have been made of the Blackhawks organization. The same cannot be said for the Redskins. Further, the name itself is an ethnic slur.  Black hawk was an actual person, a historical figure, and the team itself was named after a military unit named in his honor. Not quite in the same boat as "redskin." There really is no defense for using that word. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, you dodged my last question. I am curious, what is your end goal? What is your motivation? Sometimes we get so caught up in the details that we don't see that we want the same thing. I know you mentioned preserving Native American tradition which is an extremely noble goal and one that I think we can all agree on. I also have been getting the feeling that you are worried about Native Americans being forced to give up the Redskins mascot if this change gets made. I would definitely agree with that point. I don't think it would be right to force that change.

So, why don't you want the Redskins to change?

Because I don't think it should be changed.  More importantly, because I happen to value the opinions of Native Americans that are fine with it and don't discard them as if they are stupid, moronic, or their opinions don't count because they don't agree with someone else. 

Can't make it any more simple than that. 

Also, the term racist is thrown around at every turn these days, mostly by one side of the political spectrum that no longer can defend many of their policies to the point that when someone else disagrees, the race card comes out.  If you don't agree with their view points, you're a racist.  Pathetically sad, but the bots just are what they are.  Reflexive.  Godwin 2.0.

Furthermore, I think political correctness is a crock.  Hypocrisy even more of a crock.   I thought it was a crock when MU gave up their name, so did most alumni. 

[keefe]

Keefe

Well done with Hanoi Jane and Cher.  Especially with those two and their hypocrisy on display all the time.  I was surprised you found an image of Cher, I had heard she moved to Europe from 2000 to 2008, maybe she returned.

Cher is your typical Hollywood hypocrite. Hanoi Jane, on the other hand, is just a piece of sh1t.

Another do as I say and not as I do hero is James Earl Carter. Shortly after publicly branding the State of Israeli as a religiously intolerant, insensitive terrorist regime he headed over to Turner Field and did the tomahawk chop with his buddies Ted and Hanoi Jane. Hard to believe that man went to Annapolis.

[keefe]

The many loves of Jane Fonda

http://www.indyeastend.com/Articles-i-2008-10-08-81334.113117-Sex-With-Jane-Fonda.html

[Lennys Tap]

Because I don't think it should be changed.  More importantly, because I happen to value the opinions of Native Americans that are fine with it and don't discard them as if they are stupid, moronic, or their opinions don't count because they don't agree with someone else. 

Can't make it any more simple than that. 

Also, the term racist is thrown around at every turn these days, mostly by one side of the political spectrum that no longer can defend many of their policies to the point that when someone else disagrees, the race card comes out.  If you don't agree with their view points, you're a racist.  Pathetically sad, but the bots just are what they are.  Reflexive.  Godwin 2.0.

Furthermore, I think political correctness is a crock.  Hypocrisy even more of a crock.   I thought it was a crock when MU gave up their name, so did most alumni. 

I, too am anti PC. And I agree that there are people on the left who can't use common sense in these matters. They are bound and determined to see racism where there is none. But guys like you, who insist that "Seminoles" = "Redskins" or Chief Blackhawk = Chief Wahoo make it very difficult on us. If you refuse to acknowledge racism when it's in the very definition of a word (Redskin) and you see Willie Wampum and Chief Wahoo as wonderful traditions that need to be preserved you're not fighting hypocrisy or being politically incorrect, you're being racist. Your explanation of your defense of a racist nickname and racist imagery ("I feel this way out of respect for my Native American brothers") would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

[brandx]

Cher is your typical Hollywood hypocrite. Hanoi Jane, on the other hand, is just a piece of sh1t.

Another do as I say and not as I do hero is James Earl Carter. Shortly after publicly branding the State of Israeli as a religiously intolerant, insensitive terrorist regime he headed over to Turner Field and did the tomahawk chop with his buddies Ted and Hanoi Jane. Hard to believe that man went to Annapolis.

I'm going to disagree with you here a bit.

I sincerely thank all of my fellow antiwar "degenerates, hippies, radicals and "bums" including Jane Fonda and Mr Kerry. Without them, there may have been 500,000 casualties rather than 200,000+ American kids wounded and dead.

The 'Hanoi Jane' meme was more myth kept alive by the right than steeped in reality. This is not to deny that allowing herself to be photographed on the tank were reprehensible. But for all intents and purposes, the war was over and within 8 months all troops were gone. And I am sure as well that very few people know why she was in N. Vietnam in the 1st place.

 

[ChicosBailBonds]

The most hilarious part about this thread is that its a bunch of middle aged, upper middle class white men waxing philosophic about the merits and faults of Native American mascots, as if we have some sort of real perspective on the issue.

Well, take that back, the most hilarious part is Chicos suggesting that the Super Mario brothers is somehow analogous to Native American mascots.

You missed the point....someone is always outraged.  There were outraged Italians upset about those caricatures.  Always, someone outraged.


What's best, however, is your typical view that you exposed.  Apparently whites, especially white men, cannot have an opinion that is valid in the liberal sphere.  Quite humorous, but liberal white guilt has corrupted many people.  If it isn't Bush's fault, it certainly is some white guy's somewhere somehow.  LOL

[ChicosBailBonds]

Cher is your typical liberal Hollywood hypocrite. Hanoi Jane, on the other hand, is just a piece of sh1t.

Another do as I say and not as I do hero is James Earl Carter. Shortly after publicly branding the State of Israeli as a religiously intolerant, insensitive terrorist regime he headed over to Turner Field and did the tomahawk chop with his buddies Ted and Hanoi Jane. Hard to believe that man went to Annapolis.

Fixed it for you

[ChicosBailBonds]

If a Native American group asked the Blackhawks to change their logo, I would support the Blackhawks honoring that request. In the meantime, I am a Chicago hockey fan. I am going to wear the sweater. I find nothing hypocritical about that. As far as I know, no such requests have been made of the Blackhawks organization. The same cannot be said for the Redskins. Further, the name itself is an ethnic slur.  Black hawk was an actual person, a historical figure, and the team itself was named after a military unit named in his honor. Not quite in the same boat as "redskin." There really is no defense for using that word.  

OK, start to support it.  Native American groups have already asked that ALL imagery be removed....ALL.  Indians, Braves, Blackhawks, etc.

Let's see you you do it.  Afterall, it only takes one.


National pressure has been less on the Indians, Braves, Blackhawks and Chiefs. Obama and Reid didn't mention them. But the National Congress of American Indians, which bills itself as the nation's most representative American Indian and Alaska Native advocacy organization, has long called for the abolition of all such team names in pro sports.

"I say they're all equally offensive," Blackhorse said. "They all promote stereotypes of native people for profit. And that's not right."


Let's see some people walk the walk, which I know most of you will not.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm going to disagree with you here a bit.

I sincerely thank all of my fellow antiwar "degenerates, hippies, radicals and "bums" including Jane Fonda and Mr Kerry. Without them, there may have been 500,000 casualties rather than 200,000+ American kids wounded and dead.

The 'Hanoi Jane' meme was more myth kept alive by the right than steeped in reality. This is not to deny that allowing herself to be photographed on the tank were reprehensible. But for all intents and purposes, the war was over and within 8 months all troops were gone. And I am sure as well that very few people know why she was in N. Vietnam in the 1st place.

 

Never would have won WWII if people knew some of the true attrocities that we had to do to win.  Back then, we fought to win wars, and sometimes that got ugly and nasty.  Squirmy.  You try to be ethical, moral, fight within the "rules", but it doesn't always work that way.  Makes me wonder if we ever would have won, quite frankly. 

As for Vietnam, this from 1995 hits home.  Congratulations.  You guys got an assist.

http://www.grunt.com/corps/scuttlebutt/marine-corps-stories/gen-bui-tin-describes-north-vietnams-victory/

[mikekinsellaMVP]

OK, start to support it.  Native American groups have already asked that ALL imagery be removed....ALL.  Indians, Braves, Blackhawks, etc.

Let's see you you do it.  Afterall, it only takes one.


National pressure has been less on the Indians, Braves, Blackhawks and Chiefs. Obama and Reid didn't mention them. But the National Congress of American Indians, which bills itself as the nation's most representative American Indian and Alaska Native advocacy organization, has long called for the abolition of all such team names in pro sports.

"I say they're all equally offensive," Blackhorse said. "They all promote stereotypes of native people for profit. And that's not right."


Let's see some people walk the walk, which I know most of you will not.

Guy has a point.  A third of my high school class was Indian.  Is it hypocritical that I'm comfortable wearing my Blackhawks hat at the UC but not when I'm visiting my parents?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Guy has a point.  A third of my high school class was Indian.  Is it hypocritical that I'm comfortable wearing my Blackhawks hat at the UC but not when I'm visiting my parents?

Yes, but many of the hypocritical chuckleheads here will not grant him that point.  If you have one group of folks here saying it doesn't matter if 65% of Native Americans are ok with Redskins, it's about the 35% that aren't. Well, if there are a bunch of Native Americans that find Braves, Blackhawks, Sioux, etc offensive what's the deal?  Only NOW the opinion of these Native Americans doesn't count so they can wear their sweaters at a game?

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

That's why I keep it clean and easy.  Wear whatever the hell you want and stop pretending to be the moral authority of racism interpretation when, in fact, many are perpetuating the same behavior in the eyes of some Native Americans that they are accusing others of.  Walk the walk.

[Coleman]

Never would have won WWII if people knew some of the true attrocities that we had to do to win.  Back then, we fought to win wars, and sometimes that got ugly and nasty.  Squirmy.  You try to be ethical, moral, fight within the "rules", but it doesn't always work that way.  Makes me wonder if we ever would have won, quite frankly.

That's garbage.

The crap we pulled in WWII had nothing to do with winning. Interning Japanese did not help the war effort in any way. It was wrong. And there was no reasonable justification for it.

And if that's not what you are talking about, what atrocities are you referring to? Really easy to justify something when you don't even specify what it is.