Poll: What Becomes Of Todd Mayo?

[brewcity77]

The idea that you can evaluate players by "who do you want to have the ball with 7 seconds?" is dumb.

That's like deciding your center by who wins more jump balls. It's 1 play.

It's dumb for the sake of the whole game, that's for sure. I think it's logical to potentially put the better shooter in when you are down by 1-3 in the final 7 seconds, but by that token I think there's an argument for Jake Thomas being in the lineup in that situation over either of these guys (potentially with Cadougan, Lockett, Wilson, and DG as the other four). But does that mean that JT should be the starting 2-guard and play 28 mpg? No, that's silly. I think it also makes sense to start Otule over Gardner, but allow the potential for Gardner to get more minutes. If you get one extra possession, it's worth it, just like it's worth it to allow the guy that doesn't start the chance to get more minutes.

Bottom line, situational plays are just that, and it's a non-starter argument to say that the guy you want situationally for the 7-second play or for the tip-off is automatically the guy you want getting the most minutes. The two are completely unrelated.

[NersEllenson]

I think Ners' favorite guy is almost always the first or second guy off the bench. Last year it was Davante Gardner (who admittedly performed above my expectations when his mpg increased). This year it's Todd Mayo. Next year it will probably be TJ Taylor, Steve Taylor, or (dark horse) Jake Thomas. This thread is just a redux of last year's incredibly over-discussed Gardner/Otule threads with different names subbed in.

Brew - Honestly, I just like guys who look like good players...that is all.  Gardner showed me a lot as a freshman, and I was bullish on him as a sophomore.  Same holds true for Todd.  I really don't hate Vander at all...I just like Mayo better, and think if Todd plays at MU for 4 years, his numbers will be much better overall than Vander's.  I believe Mayo has pro potential...so its not like I'm dissing Van by saying some slouch is better than him.  Vander has pro athleticism, just not sure the rest of his game will be good enough.

[RJax55]

We probably remember a lot more of Vanders botched lay-ups than we do of Todd's ill-advised runners. Oh well.

Yep.

There's a portion of the fan base that loves to pick apart Vander's game and in general, his weaknesses are greatly magnified/remembered when compared to others. Unfortunately, like some other MU players before him, that seems to be the nature of discussion surrounding him.

When I look at the entire season (in terms of scoring), there are times when Mayo was clearly better than Blue and other parts were it was Blue over Mayo. And to use Ners under 7 seconds example (flawed as it is), in December it was Todd, but in February, my answer would be Vander.

IMO, I thought both guys were pretty close, and I think the numbers illustrate that.

[Pakuni]

Yep.
There's a portion of the fan base that loves to pick apart Vander's game and in general, his weaknesses are greatly magnified/remembered when compared to others.

Especially when it comes to his slapping five skills.

[brewcity77]

Brew - Honestly, I just like guys who look like good offensive players...that is all.

Edited that for you. You are bullish on guys that put up big numbers on one end of the floor, but act as though the skills at the other end that guys like Chris Otule and Vander Blue possess aren't relevant. Gardner is the best offensive big man we've had at least since R-Jax, and honestly, I think that by the time he's done he'll be a better offensive player. But while his defense has improved since his freshman year, he's still a below average defender, whereas Chris (at least when healthy) is an excellent defensive player. The same goes with Mayo and Blue (even though I don't think it's an either/or comparison by any stretch). Mayo is a good defender, but Blue is an exceptional one. Without a doubt the best one-on-one defender we've had since Butler, in my opinion. In addition, I think you vastly underestimate the leaps and bounds Blue made offensively last year. As noted, his 2P% was very close to Mayo's, his 3P% lags behind but still made nearly a 10-percentage point jump since his freshman year, and he was clearly our best free throw shooter down the stretch last year (81.5% from Villanova on). You also ignore Mayo's regression until the tournament. His early production dropped off vastly (including shooting 70.9% from the line in that same stretch for an apples-to-apples comparison).

Todd put up some good numbers, but to act like he's clearly ahead of Vander is simply revisionist history. Where Vander improved his game as the competition got stiffer, Todd took a step back. I know you love Todd and his potential, but it's not December 2011 anymore. Vander will likely be the starter and the reasons are evident. The same reasons that likely right now set up both Vander and Todd to start in 2013-14 (provided both are still here). Either way, if there are no roster changes, I expect we'll see both of them averaging 25+ mpg next year, and probably close to half of those minutes will be playing together.

Again, it's not in any way, shape, or form an either/or comparison.

[NersEllenson]

But you *know* that there would be "chemistry/ego" issues if Vander didn't start?

Did Buzz email you about that as well?

No, Buzz did not e-mail me that there would be chemistry/ego issues if Vander didn't start.  However, much like I recognized early on that Buzz was the real deal as a head coach, and many, yourself included, dogged me for that...and much like I recognized Gardner would be the best post player we've had here since R-Jax (early in his freshman year) and was ridiculed for that, flat out guaranteed MU would beat Wisconsin this year....sometimes you just don't need a whole lot of evidence to get it.  But, I wouldn't expect a cynic and skeptic to be able to ever come to such early stage conclusions...For this year, it will be that Jake Thomas gets some minutes and will have a small role - we already know you have said he'll never play in anything than garbage time...so we'll just see how that one unfolds..

But...I will indulge you and say, chemistry issues maybe was the wrong choice of words...ego/confidence issues if Van were relegated to the bench..absolutely.  Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??

[murara1994]

Jeez are you really calling out Vander for his ego?  The same guy who said, I don't need to shoot, we're better when DJO and Jae shoot because they are more efficient offensive players?  If it was all about Vander, he'd just want to get his, not sacrifice for the team like that.  He's seriously one of the most unselfish players I can remember and a great teammate.

No, Buzz did not e-mail me that there would be chemistry/ego issues if Vander didn't start.  However, much like I recognized early on that Buzz was the real deal as a head coach, and many, yourself included, dogged me for that...and much like I recognized Gardner would be the best post player we've had here since R-Jax (early in his freshman year) and was ridiculed for that, flat out guaranteed MU would beat Wisconsin this year....sometimes you just don't need a whole lot of evidence to get it.  But, I wouldn't expect a cynic and skeptic to be able to ever come to such early stage conclusions...For this year, it will be that Jake Thomas gets some minutes and will have a small role - we already know you have said he'll never play in anything than garbage time...so we'll just see how that one unfolds..

But...I will indulge you and say, chemistry issues maybe was the wrong choice of words...ego/confidence issues if Van were relegated to the bench..absolutely.  Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??

[GGGG]

Ners. I never dogged you because you thought buzz was the real deal as a coach. That was pretty evident early on. I dogged you because your slobbering man love made me nervous.

And you were hardly alone re gardner. I expressed excitement when he came to campus as well.

But you might be right about vanders ego. You seem to have a thorough understanding of what it means to be egotistical.

[Clam Crowder]

5-10 minutes per game was what I meant...otherwise it'd have been 5'10"

I see that now hahah thanks

[Lennys Tap]

Where are you getting the FG%?

They aren't matching what I'm finding
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/vander-blue

I've got 41.3% for Vander, and 42.9% for Todd on 2pt FG.

I googled Marquette statistics, then went to ESPN for the stats. According to ESPN, Vander made 100 shots out of 242 last year. Subtracting his 31 3pt attempts and 8 3pt makes left 211 2pt tries and 92 makes (43.6%). Todd made 90 total shots out of 215. Subtracting his 93 3pt tries and his 31 3pt makes made him 59 out of 122 from 2 (48.4%)

How did you come up with your numbers?

[SoCalwarrior]

Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??

Because Buzz is a horrible coach who sets his lineup based on egos and feelings. I don't even know how to read you anymore. You're so consistently inconsistent  (sign of the chicos, err flamer).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Go to Marquette statistics on ESPN. Subtract 3 point attempts and 3 point makes from total attempts and makes. That will give you total 2 point attempts and makes for both players. Divide the 2 point makes by each player's 2 point attempts for each player. That's how I got my numbers. Maybe I'm wrong. How did you come up with your numbers?

Ah ha, you're right.

i was looking at the stats in the link I had. There is something called 2pt FG %, but it's measuring the % of scoring they get from 2pt baskets, not their 2pt FG %.

You are correct. I did the math and Vander is 44% and Todd is 48% inside the arc. 4% isn't earth shattering, but Todd is more efficient shooting, no matter how we want to slice it.

[GGGG]

But...I will indulge you and say, chemistry issues maybe was the wrong choice of words...ego/confidence issues if Van were relegated to the bench..absolutely.  Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??

Are you saying that you think Buzz only gave Vander playing time to feed his ego?  Are you kidding me???

[NersEllenson]

Because Buzz is a horrible coach who sets his lineup based on egos and feelings. I don't even know how to read you anymore. You're so consistently inconsistent  (sign of the chicos, err flamer).

Are you saying that you think Buzz only gave Vander playing time to feed his ego?  Are you kidding me???

I'm saying it's kind of like what you saw in the movie Top Gun - after Maverick lost Goose and all his confidence, they kept sending him out because he was a talented pilot.  The same with Vander....think we all can agree he was awful in the Big East as a freshman....and think we can all agree that Vander is a talent...sometimes you stick with a player through thick and thin as a coach because they are talented...and you don't want to further add to a player's confidence issues by benching him.  Confidence issues stem from poor performance...getting benched on top of that is hard for some guys to take. 

[GGGG]

I'm saying it's kind of like what you saw in the movie Top Gun - after Maverick lost Goose and all his confidence, they kept sending him out because he was a talented pilot. 

OK, I will just let you have the last word on that because referencing a movie I haven't seen in 25+ years isn't going to do any good.

[NersEllenson]

Jeez are you really calling out Vander for his ego?  The same guy who said, I don't need to shoot, we're better when DJO and Jae shoot because they are more efficient offensive players?  If it was all about Vander, he'd just want to get his, not sacrifice for the team like that.  He's seriously one of the most unselfish players I can remember and a great teammate.

I don't know Vander Blue, much like i'd guess everyone here posting doesn't know Vander Blue.  Based on the above, I'd say Vander is a smart kid, who realized his limitations as a freshman..going into his sophomore year.  That said, I'm not sure it is a sacrifice, when for the most part, Vander hasn't been capable of getting his...seems Vander has evolved into more of an unselfish player due not being able to score successfully consistently at the high major level - other than primarily in transition.

[NersEllenson]

You seem to have a thorough understanding of what it means to be egotistical.

The feeling is mutual, btw.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm saying it's kind of like what you saw in the movie Top Gun - after Maverick lost Goose and all his confidence, they kept sending him out because he was a talented pilot.  The same with Vander....think we all can agree he was awful in the Big East as a freshman....and think we can all agree that Vander is a talent...sometimes you stick with a player through thick and thin as a coach because they are talented...and you don't want to further add to a player's confidence issues by benching him.  Confidence issues stem from poor performance...getting benched on top of that is hard for some guys to take.  

I'd say it's more like the Color of Money. Vander is like Fast Eddie, and Todd is like Vince. Everybody thinks Vince is so great, but that's only because they haven't seen him under the grinding pressure. Fast Eddie has some miles on him (and some warts), but he's a hell of a pool player, don't ever forget that.

Add an Eric Clapton soundtrack, a bitchin' white Caddy and some Warren Zevon, and you've got yourself a hell of an analogy.

Way better than Kenny Loggins.

[NersEllenson]

I'd say it's more like the Color of Money. Vander is like Fast Eddie, and Todd is like Vince. Everybody thinks Vince is so great, but that's only because they haven't seen him under the grinding pressure. Fast Eddie has some miles on him (and some warts), but he's a hell of a pool player, don't ever forget that.

Add an Eric Clapton soundtrack, a bitchin' white Caddy and some Warren Zevon, and you've got yourself a hell of an analogy.

Way better than Kenny Loggins.

Hey Ammo!  Well played.  Nicely done.  I like it.  But nothing beats the Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins.  Like I've said before, I hope we can continue the debate in that Mayo will be back and playing alongside Vander.  They both are assets to the program, and everyone has a favorite player(s) for different reasons.  Mine are Davante and Todd...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But nothing beats the Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins.

I'd take Vander Blue and Warren Zevon long before I'd take Kenny Loggins and Todd Mayo.

[brewcity77]

Here's the entire problem with this thread: It's not about Blue vs Mayo!!!

And not just because Buzz plays guys in different roles. Because they play different positions in our team. Blue is usually playing the small forward, or "3" role. Mayo is usually playing the shooting guard, or "2" role.

Is last December really so far gone that we are forgetting that Mayo's first start last year came because he was stepping in for our regular (suspended) 2, DJO? And that both he and Blue started that game? If you want to talk about Mayo comparisons, why not compare him to Trent Lockett? Because we don't have enough of a sample size yet, or because we're too comfortable using Vander as the prototypical whipping boy? Maybe a bit of both?

This thread shouldn't be about Vander Blue, and not just because the thread title has Todd's name in it, but because while there is some overlap between their traditional positions, their roles are notably different. On defense, Vander's length is going to mean more often he will be guarding guys that are bigger than the ones Mayo guards. On offense, he is being groomed to be a slasher and a distributor and less of a shooter. Mayo is a scorer first, second, and third, and maybe distribution comes in somewhere around sixth.

These guys spent plenty of time on the court together last year. If both are here in 2012-13, the time they spend on the court together will only increase. It isn't an either/or discussion. It never should have been, but some people have an agenda and I guess it's hard to bash Blue if you don't bring him into the conversation. Blue is a 3 who is seemingly being groomed to play more like a 1 (for next year after Junior leaves). Mayo is a 2 who will likely always be a 2. Yes, Buzz plays switchables, so there is some overlap, but not nearly as much as some in this thread would have us believe.

And apologies to Kenny Loggins, but Warren Zevon destroys him every day of the week, twice on Sundays.

[Dawson Rental]

Here's the entire problem with this thread: It's not about Blue vs Mayo!!!

And not just because Buzz plays guys in different roles. Because they play different positions in our team. Blue is usually playing the small forward, or "3" role. Mayo is usually playing the shooting guard, or "2" role.

Is last December really so far gone that we are forgetting that Mayo's first start last year came because he was stepping in for our regular (suspended) 2, DJO? And that both he and Blue started that game? If you want to talk about Mayo comparisons, why not compare him to Trent Lockett? Because we don't have enough of a sample size yet, or because we're too comfortable using Vander as the prototypical whipping boy? Maybe a bit of both?

This thread shouldn't be about Vander Blue, and not just because the thread title has Todd's name in it, but because while there is some overlap between their traditional positions, their roles are notably different. On defense, Vander's length is going to mean more often he will be guarding guys that are bigger than the ones Mayo guards. On offense, he is being groomed to be a slasher and a distributor and less of a shooter. Mayo is a scorer first, second, and third, and maybe distribution comes in somewhere around sixth.

These guys spent plenty of time on the court together last year. If both are here in 2012-13, the time they spend on the court together will only increase. It isn't an either/or discussion. It never should have been, but some people have an agenda and I guess it's hard to bash Blue if you don't bring him into the conversation. Blue is a 3 who is seemingly being groomed to play more like a 1 (for next year after Junior leaves). Mayo is a 2 who will likely always be a 2. Yes, Buzz plays switchables, so there is some overlap, but not nearly as much as some in this thread would have us believe.

And apologies to Kenny Loggins, but Warren Zevon destroys him every day of the week, twice on Sundays.

Way to provide needed sentimental hygiene to detox this thread of its bad karma, Boom Boom.

[brewcity77]

Way to provide needed sentimental hygiene to this thread.

Apologies, I just can't help but get in on a Kenny Loggins/Warren Zevon discussion 

[Dawson Rental]

Apologies, I just can't help but get in on a Kenny Loggins/Warren Zevon discussion 

Nothing to apologize for.

[Lennys Tap]

Warren Zevon is on the Mt Rushmore of American songwriters of my generation (with Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, John Prine and Paul Simon).

Kenny Loggins is barely a blip on the radar screen.