Full court pressure! Alleluia!

[muwarrior87]

How did we stop Reynolds? He had 25 points against us!

Why gamble on a double team press when you don't have the athletes to play it?--------teach a half court containment defense properly and you're way ahead!

How many of those points were in the opening minutes of the game when we didn't pressure?? The vast majority

[Murffieus]

Wrong----according to the game log at "go Marquette"-----Reynolds had  13 of his 25 points in the first half----furthermore he had 4 of his 5 TOs in the first half!

[bilsu]

He was hot of the gate. I do not think he was scoring because of our press. Anyways that does not make a difference, because Crean changed how we covered him. You are not going to continue doing something that is not working in a game. We are talking the overall style here. MU should press and if adjustments have to be made for game situations then they should be made. Look at the Big East teams

Cincinnati -young press
Counnecticut-still young and relies on being more talented than you press
DePaul-Point guard graduated team is young press
Georgetown-will have improved guard play, but they are young. MU cannot compete with their frontline and Princeton offense Press because we will lose in a half court game anyways
Louisville would love a high speed game and has more talent than MU, so pressing might be a mistake. Press but be quick to change if not working.
Notre Dame-Mclarney will be back, but they are more of a power team. We could not stop their freshman power forward last year. Press
Pittsburg-physical team that loves to bang press
Providence-more athletic on frontline than MU last year Press
Rutgers Press or not should not matter Press
Seton hall-same as Rutgers
St. John's-Press
Syracuse-good guards and good team start with press on be quick to switch if not working
USF-same as Rutgers
Villanova-lots of good young guards start with press and be quick to switch if not working
West Virgina-If Beeline was still coach you would definitely press, becasue they will destroy you in half court if they are hot from 3 point land. Huggins runs a physical imtimidating press, but he does not have his players. Press

15 teams

I see potential problems in pressing Louisville, Syracuse, and Villanova. Georgetown we lose to in a half court game. The question is how many of these teams do we beat in a half court slow down game. Based on last year's schedule we will play at Syracuse and Villanova. We will play Georgetown here. Last year we played Louisville home and home. The year before we played at Louisville so I guess we would play them here. My prediction would be that we lose all four games in a slow down game. So what the risk if we press and speed up the game?

[MUCrisco]

It's funny.  I remember Louisville pressing more this yr than they were able to the year before.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/south/2007-03-16-texasam-advance_N.htm?csp=34

To win, Texas A&M will have to overcome the Louisville press that forced Stanford into 21 turnovers during a 78-58 first-round victory.

"We haven't faced anybody who pressures the ball like that all season," said A&M point guard Acie Law.

Said Gillispie: "I'm not happy to be going against their press, but I'm happy to have Acie Law. ... He's been a great player is every sense of the word for us this season."

[Murffieus]

Crisco----I didn't see anything abouy a Ville press in your link. My recollection is that pitino pulled the press quite a bit this past season----for the previous 4-5 seasons he pressed 40 mpg come hell or high water and all he did is run his players into the ground without the press being effective.

bilsu-----takes specialized coaching knowledge and special talent to be effective with a full court press----and MU doesn't have either. TC would like to have a full court team on both offense and defense (he trys it early on every year)----but the reality is that he's a half court coach----at least that's what he always relies on as the conference season develops------and I agree with that 100%-----full court press and fast break off misses is pie in the sky----might be effective against some of the lessor teams-----but  against the quality teams----no way!

[Marquette84]

Wrong----according to the game log at "go Marquette"-----Reynolds had  13 of his 25 points in the first half----furthermore he had 4 of his 5 TOs in the first half!

I think YOU need to go back and check the facts.

According to the game log, Reyonlds had 16 first half and 9 second half points.


But that doesn't show the whole story.  Six of his seven field goals for the game came during the first half--more specifically, they came in the first 10:32 of the first half.   

17:27
14:12
12:48
11:27
10:55
9:28

And then . . . .Crean threw the press at Villanova.

In the final 29:28--AFTER the press was turned on--Scottie Reynolds had exactly ONE field goal.  ONE!!!

BTW, Six of his nine 2nd half points were on free throws.

I'd say the press was effective. 

[ecompt]

Murff, why do you continue to make up stuff? I was at the Villanova game and Reynolds had 16 points in the first 11 minutes, then didn't score the rest of the half. No one is saying we should press 40 minutes, but you say don't bother with it at all, which is assinine.

[Murffieus]

Well sure in the second half they hacked Reynolds to death (anyone can be slowed down that way)---and he went to the line-----9 points in a half works out to 18 points for a game-----I don't call that "shutting someone down"!

Then too, if a press was so effective on Reynolds why did he have 4 of his 5 TOs in the first half without a press (only 1 TO in the 2nd half against a press?----hmmmmmm!)

[MUCrisco]

Murf,

My recollection is that they pressed more this year since Louisville has more athletes.  I even highlighted where they talk about a press.  I don't know how you missed that.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news?slug=ga-south2007acielaw031607&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

What does Law expect Louisville to give? Relentless effort with their press.

"The biggest thing I saw on the film last night was they continue with it," Law said. "Usually a team will press you, but when you break the initial front, they tend to back off a little bit. Louisville continues to press you throughout the whole possession. You've got to always be under control and know what's going on."

Gillispie expressed nothing but respect for Pitino and Louisville's personnel. But he believes Law can control the ball and hopefully the tempo Saturday.

"I'm not happy to be going against the press," Gillispie said. "But I'm happy that we have Acie Law."

[Murffieus]

Pitino played a containment 2-3 zone this past season everytime I saw them in the BE, which was quite often.

In other years he'd play man to man full court defense  for 40 minutes while doubling off that frequently  !

[Marquette84]

Well sure in the second half they hacked Reynolds to death (anyone can be slowed down that way)---and he went to the line-----9 points in a half works out to 18 points for a game-----I don't call that "shutting someone down"!

Then too, if a press was so effective on Reynolds why did he have 4 of his 5 TOs in the first half without a press (only 1 TO in the 2nd half against a press?----hmmmmmm!)

Once again, I suggest that you actually look at the game notes.  As typical for you, you've played fast and loose with facts making three whoppers along the way.

1.  You are flat out wrong when you say that Reynolds had 4 turnovers without a press.  The press was applied halfway through the 1st half.  Reynolds had two turnovers before the press was applied, three after (2 in the first half, 1 in the 2nd). 


2.  You are flat-out wrong in saying that Reynolds scored nine points per half.

He scored 16 points in the first 10 minutes WITHOUT a press. 
He then scored 9 points over the next 30 mintues (last 10 minutes of the first half, and the entire 2nd half)  WITH a press.


3.  You are flat out wrong in saying that Reynolds was "hacked to death" during the press---his first foul shot didn't take place until 7:30 left in the second half--an amazing 23 minutes AFTER the press was applied. 


One post--three glaring errors.  Par for the course for you. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Murf,

Let's just leave it at this:

- You don't think MU can press because they don't have the players and Crean can't teach it.

- Several people have posted that they think MU can press because of their depth and athletic ability.

The good news for all of us is that MU actually does play in the 07-08 season, so this debate can end when 1 of 2 things happens.

#1 MU effectively uses pressing tactics as a strategy to win games

or

#2 MU is ineffective using its press and either gets beaten or abandons it.

I will be sure to dig up this thread during the season so we can all look back and see what everybody predicted. I guess I don't really care how MU plays, as long as they win.

[Murffieus]

SJS----check out the link below (NOVA game notes) and please show me where it talks about MU pressing NOVA at all much less the times you cite above!

http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/021907aaf.html

[MUCrisco]

Murf,

Pitino has been using that 2-3 zone since a couple of yrs ago when Louisville went to the Final 4.  The only difference this year is that they have been able to press more.  Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen just like when you thought Jack Bennett never changed defenses.

[muwarrior87]

Anyone count how many times Murf used UAB in his response or just how many posts he has on this thread?? I think a life outside muscoop, as sad as that may be, needs to be found. Many ppl differ in opinions on the press issue but it seems like there is one person who is a broken record in this thread and has said the same thing about 15 different times...if not more.

[Murffieus]

Crisco----I've seen Jack Bennett's UWSP teams play at least a dozen times over the years (all at home)----and he never played zone----he didn't play zone against MU in the exhibition game here either-----seems to me if he played zone he would have used it against MU in an attempt to neutralize the talent disparity!

Prior to this year Pitino played 90 % man to man at Louisville----this year by mid season he was playing zone as his base defense!

[Marquette84]

SJS----check out the link below (NOVA game notes) and please show me where it talks about MU pressing NOVA at all much less the times you cite above!

http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/021907aaf.html

Gee, Murff--I don't see anything in that link that talks about Reynolds making 4 turnovers without the press, and just one afterwards.  I don't see anything that supports your contention that he was "hacked to death" and that's why he didn't score (even though he didn't go to the line for a 23 minute stretch).  I don't see anything that says he scored 9 points in each half.

And yet, you're going to try and weasel an argument over the fact that gthis particular link doesn't state when MU turned on the press? 

Look--everyone who saw the game knows EXACTLY when the press was used--it was after Reynolds was going nuts on MU--scoring 16 points in the first 9 minutes.  He was KILLING us with his shooting and something had to be done to turn him around. 

Meanwhile, THIS link backs up everything I've said:
http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2006-2007/29vil06.html

1.  You said Reynolds scored 9 points in each half--that is clearly wrong.  In fact, he scored 16 in the first 9 minutes, and just 9 the rest of the way.  Of those 9, just three were on field goals.

2.  You said that Reynolds was contained because he was "hacked to death".  But he didn't go to the one once for a 23 minute stretch when he managed just one field goal (after hitting six in just nine minutes).

3.  You said that Reynolds turned the ball over 4 times before MU switched to a press.  You haven't shown a single link to prove that--and it doesn't fit with the way the game was actually played.  Those of us who saw the game know exactly when Crean turned on the press.

[MUCrisco]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2020297&type=story

Wednesday, March 23, 2005
Louisville riding success of zone defense

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Andy Katz
ESPN.com

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Rick Pitino is right on schedule for getting Louisville back to the Sweet 16 and possibly the Final Four.

But the way in which Pitino has the Cardinals here wasn't always in the cards.

 
Louisville's landing Pitino gave fans across the Commonwealth reason to shout.

He planned on having a trapping and pressing team. He tried that for the first three years, but injuries and illnesses led the Cardinals to fade in February and March and bounced Louisville out of the second round two seasons ago, done in round one last year.

So what had to change in Pitino's fourth season for the Cardinals to reach the Sweet 16 for Thursday night's matchup with No. 1 seed Washington here at The Pit?

Pitino had to use a 2-3 zone and pull back the press.

So far, it's worked to the tune of 11 straight wins and 20 victories in the last 21 games.

"Our 2-3 zone has been very effective as you saw versus Georgia Tech," Louisville senior forward Ellis Myles said. "A lot of people don't understand that in the past we were a pressing team but now we're playing a 2-3 zone."

Louisville junior guard Taquan Dean said because of the depth issue facing the Cardinals, the switch to the zone was a necessity. The Cardinals are less likely to be in foul trouble.

"Guys are on the court longer and it's actually limited the injuries," Dean said. "When you're pressing and you're out there using every muscle in your body it takes a toll."

Myles said he gets an extra wind later in the game since he's sitting back in the 2-3 zone.

But Pitino isn't about to give up on the pressing style that made him famous at Kentucky, the last time he was in the Final Four in 1996.

"We had to change this year but it has changed by weeks," Pitino said. "Once Otis George got healthy we could press but then he got a stress fracture and Taquan had backs spasms, so we changed back again."

Pitino doesn't buy that the players' legs are fresher but does acknowledge that the players are playing fewer minutes -- and that could help.

Switching from zone to man to a press could catch teams off guard.

"Coach has been a master at mixing both and it keeps teams off balance because they don't know if we're going to press, zone, go halfcourt or trap," said Louisville assistant Vince Taylor.

Regardless, the Cardinals do have the pieces in place to make a Final Four run by getting past Washington and then Texas Tech or West Virginia. The Cards have the changing defenses, the scoring lead wing in Francisco Garcia, a shooter in Dean, a surging scorer in Larry O'Bannon (18 points a game in the last seven) and a few role forwards who don't mind doing the dirty work in Juan Palacios, Myles and George.

Pitino isn't one to make excuses. He said Xavier was better than Louisville last year in the first round of the NCAA Tournament.

"When coach Pitino first got here they expected him to win the championship right away," said Taylor, who was the one holdover from Denny Crum to Pitino. "It just doesn't happen like that anymore because of the parity in college basketball."

The Cardinals had to get older and sprinkle in more "Pitino-like" players. Now, four of the five in the starting lineup are upperclassmen.

"We had a winning record the first year and had a winning record the next two years and now we've taken it a little further," Pitino said. "This year we are a much better basketball team than last year. It's all talent driven."

But Pitino has changed with the talent, too, making sure he maximizes their abilities by going with the flow and tossing in a zone. It's not classic Pitino, but he doesn't have to be anymore. His style may be changing, but the outcome is once again the same -- he's winning big in March.

Andy Katz is a senior writer at ESPN.com.

[Murffieus]

SJS----I don't see anything in your link that says that NOVA pressed at all----much less at the specific times that you cite.

I didn't say that Reynolds scored 9 points each half----read more closely next time. Also Reynolds had two TOs in the first 6 minutes when you say MU didn't press----when I said 4 TOs in the first half it was in response to someone who said that we didn't press until the 2nd half. I think I have a tape of the game.

You say MU went into a press right after Reynolds scored 16 points----what kind of a press was it? Give me some details as to why this was effective. I mean when a guy scores 16 points in 10 minutes he's on schedule to score 64 points in that game-----everyone knows that he isn't going to keep that pace up regardless of what defense is used against him (press or otherwise). So to say the press stopped Reynolds is ridiculous----the law of averages limited Reynolds the rest of the way more than anything else-----i mean when is the last time a guy scored 64 points against MU?----40 points?-----35 points?-----30 points?

[ecompt]

Murff--MU did not go into an all-court press. What we did was pick up three quarters and have Cubillan (or DJ) deny Reynolds the ball. The strategy worked, as Reynolds had one field goal after that. Your saying that it wasn't MU's defense but the law of averages that slowed down Reynolds is beyond preposterous. Yeah, I'm sure TC told his players, "Let's keep it up, guys. He'll slow down eventually." As a former coach, you must know that wasn't the case. Wouldn't you have done the same thing TC did---deny Reynolds the ball by keeping a player glued on him and pressuring the ball?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yea,

I'm not sure that the "he'll eventually go cold" defense is really effective. He was getting open shots and making open shots.

The defense made an adjustment to make him work harder to get open, and work hard to bring the ball up. This appeared to wear him down a little bit and cool off his hot shooting (his looks were more contested).

Obviously very few players score 40pts in a game, but that is because teams make mid-game adjustments to prevent players from going off for the whole game.

[Murffieus]

ecompt----well that is my point----"it wasn't an all out press"----it was simple pressure with a single (one man) objective and that was to deny Reynolds the ball.

This thread is about all out pressure for all or part of the game. All out pressure involves doubling against the sidelines------we have never been effective at that----it's a big gamble except if you have nothing to lose at crunch time and have to steal the ball.

Against a quality team, doubling is trouble because they will invariably get numbers on you going down the floor-----only works against the cream puffs who you should beat anyway----so why spend the time and energy on it unless you have UAB type talent?

[augoman]

Murff, I agree w/ you re the FCP, and appreciate your sharing the knowledge of same you gained the hard way.  I especially appreciate your eveness in the face of some rather poor-spirited comments.  I do, however, wonder if MU can spring the double on the ball handler as he crosses midcourt and use the trap effectively, as there isn't the liklyhood of the deep pass to protect?  I realize we may have a height disadvantage w/ Cubes, Acker or DJ, but could use Fitz or Lazar to this end w/ Wes or McNeal.

[Murffieus]

augoman----the half court press makes more sense as when doubling in the half court you're not as vulnerable for the easy hoop as the defenders are all closer to the ball and therefore have time to recover to prevent the press from being broken down.

The offense has to get the ball into the half court anyway within 10 seconds----so I don't see the reason to leave yourself exposed off the full court press gamble!

However, my personal preference is the half court "containment defense" be it a zone or a man to man (again my preference). My benchmark would be MSU and UW against us!

[Ready2Fly]

So you don't think we have the personnell (a.k.a. UAB-type athletes) to run a pressure defense, but your model is a "pack it in and contain" defense like MSU and UW?

That may be your preference.  And I'll play along and say that we don't have the "UAB-type" athletes to press (not my opinion, but I'll play along).  But we CERTAINLY don't have the "MSU-UW type" athletes to pack it in and contain.  We would get absolutely slaughtered on the interior.  It would be a joke.

No one is saying 40 minutes of end-to-end pressing.  But 3/4 pressure, 1/2 court pressure, man to man, and a bit of zone sprinkled in would be playing to our strengths.  Packing it in and containing would be wasting a considerable amount of athleticism, frustrate our best players, and play to our WEAKNESSES.  While it may be your preference, we simply don't have the MSU-type athletes to play that style of ball.

Not to mention it's insanely boring.