Ryan Braun Tests Positive for PEDs

[JD]

Lots of wonderful insight on this board.

I'm going to chip in as well. Brauns second test came back negative fyi.

[dwaderoy2004]

I had not seen that they admitted anything.  I only saw that they said he tested positive for a banned substance, which was not a PED or steroid, not that they admitted he took the banned substance.  They also said they would be vindicated.  That doesn't sound like someone who admitted taking a substance.

I was out yesterday, traveling and attending the Packer game.  I had not seen anything beyond the morning news.  If there is something, please link it (not questionning, but requesting).

Mea Culpa.  I spoke with a milwaukee friend last night that told me as much.  But I just spent about 15 minutes looking for something and came up empty.  Shame on me for posting without having anything to back me up beforehand.  This appears to be the most comprehensive article out there at this point:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/brauns-odds-of-avoiding-suspension-tough-q03d7l5-135420708.html

[MUMac]

Mea Culpa.  I spoke with a milwaukee friend last night that told me as much.  But I just spent about 15 minutes looking for something and came up empty.  Shame on me for posting without having anything to back me up beforehand.  This appears to be the most comprehensive article out there at this point:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/brauns-odds-of-avoiding-suspension-tough-q03d7l5-135420708.html

Thanks.  I wasn't aware of anything ... but nothing surprises me anymore!

[MUBurrow]

I didn't mean for my post about his test results helping his appeal to sound sarcastic (not sure if it was taken that way). I was totally serious.  It would be very very odd for him to be the player he was then to start mainlining testosterone.  I acknowledge the counter argument that he might have just cheated the tests this whole time, but with those kinds of results, thats a conspiracy that would have to run pretty deep. If its true that his test results were totally out of line with anything ever seen even by known cheaters, it (without the benefit of further evidence) at least seems to lend possible credence to: a) a faulty test or - more likely b) the absorption of a substance without his knowledge.  Again, I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy, but such out of whack results means, at bare minimum, that there's some very important information yet to come out.

[MU B2002]

  Again, I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy, but such out of whack results means, at bare minimum, that there's some very important information yet to come out.

In the womb Ryan was a twin, but during the 2nd trimester he ingested the other boy and now has the strength and testosterone of two men.  Seems to explain it.

[dwaderoy2004]

I didn't mean for my post about his test results helping his appeal to sound sarcastic (not sure if it was taken that way). I was totally serious.  It would be very very odd for him to be the player he was then to start mainlining testosterone.  I acknowledge the counter argument that he might have just cheated the tests this whole time, but with those kinds of results, thats a conspiracy that would have to run pretty deep. If its true that his test results were totally out of line with anything ever seen even by known cheaters, it (without the benefit of further evidence) at least seems to lend possible credence to: a) a faulty test or - more likely b) the absorption of a substance without his knowledge.  Again, I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy, but such out of whack results means, at bare minimum, that there's some very important information yet to come out.

i was being sarcastic in my response.

[MUMac]

I didn't mean for my post about his test results helping his appeal to sound sarcastic (not sure if it was taken that way). I was totally serious.  It would be very very odd for him to be the player he was then to start mainlining testosterone.  I acknowledge the counter argument that he might have just cheated the tests this whole time, but with those kinds of results, thats a conspiracy that would have to run pretty deep. If its true that his test results were totally out of line with anything ever seen even by known cheaters, it (without the benefit of further evidence) at least seems to lend possible credence to: a) a faulty test or - more likely b) the absorption of a substance without his knowledge.  Again, I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy, but such out of whack results means, at bare minimum, that there's some very important information yet to come out.

Too many unknowns to me right now.  I don't know the timing of both tests.  Is it reasonable from the highest ever test to clean out of the system to then have a test within the limits?

As for if he took anything, he was injured this year.  Wasn't it Andy Pettite who took some PED's or other substance to recover from an injury?  Could Braun have done the same?  In Pettite's situation, though, I believe he admitted right away and gave the reason for the substance.

[Benny B]

This is just pure speculation.... but from what I can decipher in the multitude of incomplete and sometimes conflicting reports, my guess is one of three possible scenarios is going to play out here:

A) Braun's "A" test showed the highest levels of testosterone MLB has ever seen, but either i) his ratios were still within reasonable limits or ii) the level was so impossibly high indicating the sample was tainted or an error was made in testing, but the test on the "B" sample was performed any way; nevertheless, the "B" sample turned something up, be it PED or otherwise.  Braun's camp is going to be making the "probable cause" argument on appeal... i.e. the "B" test should have never been performed because i) the "A" test was invalid or ii) that WADA used the "A" test to test for something outside the guidelines of what would be allowable in a "B" test given the "A" results (i.e. if someone has high testosterone, MLBPA may say that you can only test for specific things in the "B" sample).  This is tantamount to a cop who executes a search warrant on the wrong house and finds a stolen car... even though the guy who had the stolen car won't be prosecuted for grand theft auto, he still stole the car.

or

B) Something turned up in the "A" or "B" sample that WADA and/or MLB has never seen before.  Something like a trial cancer medication which is still in the R&D stage that has completely stumped the WADA (because they have no idea if it even falls into the "doping" category).

or

C) Braun tested positive for something that WADA is capable of testing, but which was either i) not permitted to be tested or ii) not a banned substance under the CBA that was in effect at the time (e.g. HGH).

Don't look for WADA, the MLBPA or MLB to fall on the sword here... even if it turns out Braun is indeed completely innocent, his reputation has suffered irreparable damage.  But to have an appeal sustained or errors admitted would break the levy that would completely undermine and effectively defeat any chance of adaquate drug testing going forward.  For that reason alone, I hope Braun did it, because the consequences of innocence would be tragic in this case.

[shiloh26]

Don't look for WADA, the MLBPA or MLB to fall on the sword here... even if it turns out Braun is indeed completely innocent, his reputation has suffered irreparable damage.  But to have an appeal sustained or errors admitted would break the levy that would completely undermine and effectively defeat any chance of adaquate drug testing going forward.  For that reason alone, I hope Braun did it, because the consequences of innocence would be tragic in this case.

I lost you here.  One mistake (I'm not saying there was one) would ruin the legitimacy of the entire system?  Courts make mistakes all the time, and appeals courts correct them.  Judging by the fact we generally take our disputes there rather than pursuing other measures, I'd say that a mistake-prone body can still garner plenty of legitimacy.  

And I guess I just have trouble with the statement that it would be more tragic to have an innocent party exonerated than it would be to continue with the half-truth.  Again, not saying he's innocent, and I'm having a hard time even giving him a benefit of the doubt, but this story seems to have an iceberg underneath it, and I think baseball is worse off if they cover something up than if they admit a mistake in a testing procedure that is probably good enough that people can still believe in the system.  

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm confused by this statement in the ESPN.com article...

"A source close to Braun said that when he was told about the positive test, he immediately requested to be tested again. That second test, using a different sample that was tested by Braun's camp, the source said, was not positive."

Did Braun's people have a sample tested on their own/outside of MLB's standard testing procedures? Or did they simply request that MLB test another sample? If Braun's representatives did it on their own, I think that raises more questions than answers.

[chapman]

I took it to mean the test was administered by MLB.  Also makes you wonder about the conflicting reports on whether this is PED or another substance, i.e. a stimulant.  If it was a testosterone boosting substance that was twice the highest levels ever seen under the program and the second sample comes back completely clean it really calls into question the first test - you probably can't lower levels from crazy high to normal in two weeks.  If it's a stimulant, just the opposite: no surprise at all if the second one comes back fine.

[dwaderoy2004]

From what I understand, Braun took a 2nd sample after the fact through MLB (how long after we don't know for sure).  It came back "non-positive" (which is different than negative mind you).  However, MLB policy is that a negative sample cannot negate a positive sample, for obvious reasons.

[Benny B]

I lost you here.  One mistake (I'm not saying there was one) would ruin the legitimacy of the entire system?  Courts make mistakes all the time, and appeals courts correct them.  Judging by the fact we generally take our disputes there rather than pursuing other measures, I'd say that a mistake-prone body can still garner plenty of legitimacy.  

And I guess I just have trouble with the statement that it would be more tragic to have an innocent party exonerated than it would be to continue with the half-truth.  Again, not saying he's innocent, and I'm having a hard time even giving him a benefit of the doubt, but this story seems to have an iceberg underneath it, and I think baseball is worse off if they cover something up than if they admit a mistake in a testing procedure that is probably good enough that people can still believe in the system.  

Given a) the money involved with pro sports contracts, b) the litigious nature of our society, and c) the willingness in sports to cave on any matter of principal so long as you're compensated --- if just one test can be overturned on a technicality - be that a technicality in due process or the in the testing process itself - every athlete's agent will attempt to use that result as precedent as to why their client's test was inaccurate/questionable/invalid/etc in the future, and honestly, I don't think MLB has the resources or desire to defend its policy against a bombardment of test appeals, even if the appeals have no merit whatsoever.  I hate making slippery slope arguments, but there's significant value to the WADA and MLB in the deterrent that 0 for 12 on appeals has on those contemplating an appeal.  Unless one player is greater than the MLB drug-testing policy, Braun is going to be the sacrificial lamb if he has any level of culpability whatsoever.

The only way Braun and MLB can come out unscathed is if there was deliberate misconduct or fraud by the WADA and some scientist in Montreal goes to jail.

[Hards Alumni]

http://deadspin.com/5867318/a-guide-to-the-medical-semantic-mess-of-ryan-brauns-ped-case

[dwaderoy2004]

I guess my buddy was right, although I'm still not sure where the article found the admission, or if they are making a leap by piecing things together :  "If we believe Braun's team, which acknowledges that he took a banned substance but denies that it's a PED..."

[RawdogDX]

From what I understand, Braun took a 2nd sample after the fact through MLB (how long after we don't know for sure).  It came back "non-positive" (which is different than negative mind you).  However, MLB policy is that a negative sample cannot negate a positive sample, for obvious reasons.

No, his second test was with some group he hired.  It was weeks later:
"According to drug testing experts, though, passing a subsequent test is not, in and of itself, a valid defense and actually fits the pattern of some previous doping cases. US Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart has no specific knowledge of the Braun case, but says that a testosterone level that goes from normal, to high, to normal is typical of someone on a steroid cycle. "After a person stops using, the T:E ratio" -- that's the testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio, which is 1:1 in most people, and above 4:1 in positive tests -- "goes back down to normal levels, and that could be in a matter of days or hours. It depends on how much they used, how long they've been using, and their own individual metabolism." Research done by German scientists showed that one particular drug boosted a patient's T:E ratio above 80:1 before it dropped back to normal only 12 hours later."

The second test doesn't matter.  The fact that he was able to dodge tests in previous years doesn't clear him.  He may have been the highest levels the MLB has ever found but not the highest anyone has ever found so don't start claiming that it was so high that it must be a mistake. 
Get over it homers.  Your MVP is a cheater. 

[wadesworld]

The second test doesn't matter.  The fact that he was able to dodge tests in previous years doesn't clear him.  He may have been the highest levels the MLB has ever found but not the highest anyone has ever found so don't start claiming that it was so high that it must be a mistake.  
Get over it homers.  Your MVP is a cheater.  

Glad we have the guy who gave Braun the test and made the readings on this board.  Somebody who knows all of the facts about the situation to clear everything up for us.  Could've saved us 3 pages and just told us this right away.

By the way, so is yours.  I'll take a cheater who wins the MVP and a team that gets 96 wins, wins the NL Central, and goes to the NLCS over a team that wins 71 games, finishes 25 games back (and 19 out of the playoffs), and gives up their best player in the offseason to the team that won the division but doesn't cheat (I would assume you would know for sure that nobody on the Cubbies has ever taken PEDs or any illegal substance before).

[RawdogDX]

Glad we have the guy who gave Braun the test and made the readings on this board.  Somebody who knows all of the facts about the situation to clear everything up for us.  Could've saved us 3 pages and just told us this right away.

By the way, so is yours.  I'll take a cheater who wins the MVP and a team that gets 96 wins, wins the NL Central, and goes to the NLCS over a team that wins 71 games, finishes 25 games back (and 19 out of the playoffs), and gives up their best player in the offseason to the team that won the division but doesn't cheat (I would assume you would know for sure that nobody on the Cubbies has ever taken PEDs or any illegal substance before).

As usual, I don't say things and then you say that i think them.  Your guy, won rookie of the year, made several all star teams, won an MVP and now got caught with sick levels of synthetic testosterone.  Everyone on this board is bending over backwards to convince themselves that he's innocent.  This has nothing to do with any other team in the league. 

As for how you don't care about steroids use, I don't give a crap about it either.  (WE AGREE!)  I think the gov should start putting HGH in our water supply, that stuff is awesome.  That said if a cub gets caught next year you won't hear me saying: "Well... two weeks after that he took his own test and he passed it... No way he did it!" 

Just shrug and say: "Hey, guys cheat.  Hope he's still good when he gets back. "
Not: "I refuse to think this because he has my teams jersey on."

[MUMac]

As usual, I don't say things and then you say that i think them.  Your guy, won rookie of the year, made several all star teams, won an MVP and now got caught with sick levels of synthetic testosterone.  Everyone on this board is bending over backwards to convince themselves that he's innocent.  This has nothing to do with any other team in the league. 

As for how you don't care about steroids use, I don't give a crap about it either.  (WE AGREE!)  I think the gov should start putting HGH in our water supply, that stuff is awesome.  That said if a cub gets caught next year you won't hear me saying: "Well... two weeks after that he took his own test and he passed it... No way he did it!" 

Just shrug and say: "Hey, guys cheat.  Hope he's still good when he gets back. "
Not: "I refuse to think this because he has my teams jersey on."

Interesting that you complain about not saying things and then having someone say that you thought them.  This post is chock full of just that.  Pot, meet kettle.

Who has said any of the quotes you provided?  You placed them in quotations, so they were quotes, right?  Oh, yeah, they were "thinking" them.

All I have seen in this thread are questions about what is accurate.  So far, nothing official has been made public.  Yet, you have appeared to have convicted Braun.  You may be correct.  Then again, leaping to conclusions based upon media reports can be a dangerous thing.  Or wasn't that what you were thinking?   

[wadesworld]

As usual, I don't say things and then you say that i think them.  Your guy, won rookie of the year, made several all star teams, won an MVP and now got caught with sick levels of synthetic testosterone.  Everyone on this board is bending over backwards to convince themselves that he's innocent.  This has nothing to do with any other team in the league.  

As for how you don't care about steroids use, I don't give a crap about it either.  (WE AGREE!)  I think the gov should start putting HGH in our water supply, that stuff is awesome.  That said if a cub gets caught next year you won't hear me saying: "Well... two weeks after that he took his own test and he passed it... No way he did it!"  

Just shrug and say: "Hey, guys cheat.  Hope he's still good when he gets back. "
Not: "I refuse to think this because he has my teams jersey on."

I've actually been saying for a long time (a couple years) to anyone that would listen that I bet Braun was on steroids.  I will admit I didn't think he was doing them when I was saying it, but based on ARod doing them at the University of Miami during the time that Braun was playing at the University of Miami, and the guy was getting the biggest contract in the history of baseball, I thought it would be pretty easy to see that and think "Hey, it worked for him, I have easy access to this stuff with him doing it here, let's see how this goes..."

Having said that, I don't know what is going to come of this until it is all said and done, so I am not going to pretend that he was cheating (or knowingly cheating) this past season.  If he was, he was and it isn't as shocking to me as most seem to consider it.  If he wasn't, then I would be very happy because he doesn't have to sit 50 (or 25 if it isn't PEDs like some rumors have suggested) games.

[RawdogDX]

Interesting that you complain about not saying things and then having someone say that you thought them.  This post is chock full of just that.  Pot, meet kettle.

Who has said any of the quotes you provided?  You placed them in quotations, so they were quotes, right?  Oh, yeah, they were "thinking" them.

All I have seen in this thread are questions about what is accurate.  So far, nothing official has been made public.  Yet, you have appeared to have convicted Braun.  You may be correct.  Then again, leaping to conclusions based upon media reports can be a dangerous thing.  Or wasn't that what you were thinking?   

I wrote:
That said if a cub gets caught next year you won't hear me saying: "Well... two weeks after that he took his own test and he passed it... No way he did it!" 

I was quoting what a potential version of me would say if I started huffing paint. 

You are 100% right on the 'everyone else is bending over backwords'.  It was a reactionary exageration.

As for convicting people, someone fails these tests for PED's (without any details) and perhaps they ordered something from GNC.  You test for a high level of synthetic testosterone then you did it, and it wasn't the first time.

[chapman]

I've actually been saying for a long time (a couple years) to anyone that would listen that I bet Braun was on steroids.  I will admit I didn't think he was doing them when I was saying it, but based on ARod doing them at the University of Miami during the time that Braun was playing at the University of Miami, and the guy was getting the biggest contract in the history of baseball, I thought it would be pretty easy to see that and think "Hey, it worked for him, I have easy access to this stuff with him doing it here, let's see how this goes..."

If he did take something, I'm not going for the conspiracy theory that he's been supping up for as far back as his Miami, Minor League, or even Brewers days and managed to ace a couple dozen tests along the way.  Simpler than that: team in a division and perhaps pennant race, last year with Fielder, look no further than July 2011 and the nagging calf injury that was keeping him out, getting re-injured at least once. 

[MUMac]

nt

[dwaderoy2004]

This article clarifies that the 2nd test was not done by MLB but by an independent facility.  good article, some rehash, some new stuff:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/david_epstein/12/12/ryan.braun.test/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2


Added: This appears to be the article rawdog was quoting from.

[Benny B]

No, his second test was with some group he hired.  It was weeks later:
"According to drug testing experts, though, passing a subsequent test is not, in and of itself, a valid defense and actually fits the pattern of some previous doping cases. US Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart has no specific knowledge of the Braun case, but says that a testosterone level that goes from normal, to high, to normal is typical of someone on a steroid cycle. "After a person stops using, the T:E ratio" -- that's the testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio, which is 1:1 in most people, and above 4:1 in positive tests -- "goes back down to normal levels, and that could be in a matter of days or hours. It depends on how much they used, how long they've been using, and their own individual metabolism." Research done by German scientists showed that one particular drug boosted a patient's T:E ratio above 80:1 before it dropped back to normal only 12 hours later."

The second test doesn't matter.  The fact that he was able to dodge tests in previous years doesn't clear him.  He may have been the highest levels the MLB has ever found but not the highest anyone has ever found so don't start claiming that it was so high that it must be a mistake. 
Get over it homers.  Your MVP is a cheater. 

You're quoting a study that looked at T:E ratios in response to "one particular drug".  I have not seen the study, but the brief description you gave indicates that the "drug" caused T levels to increase but as the "drug" metabolized, the T levels went back to normal.  The difference between this and Ryan Braun is that this study you quote was measuring natural testosterone.  What was supposedly found in Braun's test was synthetic testosterone, which is not as readily metabolized by the body.  What I heard on WTMJ yesterday afternoon is that 10% of synthetic testosterone can remain in the system two weeks after IV injection.

I don't think Braun is innocent, but if you're going to trash a guy, at least quote the relevant facts/studies.