Crean cleaning up

[Golden Avalanche]

So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind. 

Forgive me, but where is the questionable background?

[Lennys Tap]

So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind. 

We have been told by our resident insider on all things Indiana that the reason this year's class at IU was so weak is that TC wasn't given any leeway in recruiting "questionables". Clearly that was not the case. If something like this happened at MU, I'd guarantee some major squirming.

[tower912]

Forgive me, but where is the questionable background?

His history in France.   Not 'questionable' from an ethical/criminal sense.   Questionable from a 'his academic and playing history overseas may make it difficult to keep him eligible' sense.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We have been told by our resident insider on all things Indiana that the reason this year's class at IU was so weak is that TC wasn't given any leeway in recruiting "questionables". Clearly that was not the case. If something like this happened at MU, I'd guarantee some major squirming.

Care to go back and restate that based on what I actually said....THE ENTIRE thing that I said, not cherry picked?

Thanks...that seems the least you could do to represent my position honestly.  That's all I can ask, since you certainly didn't portray it honestly in the above paragraph.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind.  

I'm curious what you are comparing this, too?  Bringing a kid in to play who is ultimately ruled ineligible because of amateurism issues (the same process Mbao had to go through)....this is the same as accepting a kid's letter of intent and then kicking him to the curb?

I'm just trying to understand what you're comparing it to?  Is it the same as tampering with a kid that is under scholarship with another university...a no-no with the NCAA?

Please explain.  Thanks

[ChicosBailBonds]

Forgive me, but where is the questionable background?

The same type of background Mbao had...he played for a foreign team and when he was brought up, the NCAA deemed him professional.  That' the extent of the "questionable" background.

He didn't sign a LOI and then kicked to the curb.  He wasn't under scholarship at another school and tampered with.  He wasn't involved in any criminal issues or academic issues at all.  It's a matter of his 5 year eligibility window and amateurism.  Plain and simple, people here just wanting to make it look unsavory which it isn't.  Crean has done unsavory things in the past and I'm sure in the future, this isn't one of them.

"There are not other issues at play here," Cromer said. "It is simply a matter of overlapping bylaws and the fact that he ran out of time on his five-year clock to get to his eligibility in Division I."

Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

[Lennys Tap]

Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

Big frickin' deal. Where are they gonna find someone for this year on Dec 2? LOL

[NavinRJohnson]

The same type of background Mbao had...he played for a foreign team and when he was brought up, the NCAA deemed him professional.  That' the extent of the "questionable" background.

He didn't sign a LOI and then kicked to the curb.  He wasn't under scholarship at another school and tampered with.  He wasn't involved in any criminal issues or academic issues at all.  It's a matter of his 5 year eligibility window and amateurism.  Plain and simple, people here just wanting to make it look unsavory which it isn't.  Crean has done unsavory things in the past and I'm sure in the future, this isn't one of them.

"There are not other issues at play here," Cromer said. "It is simply a matter of overlapping bylaws and the fact that he ran out of time on his five-year clock to get to his eligibility in Division I."

Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

So let me get this straight, you claim you always want MU to win, are a much bigger MU fan than IU fan (and I assume would pull for MU were the two teams to meet, but feel free to reverse that position/correct me on that), yet based on your many comments the past several months, you obviously believe MU's coach is a cretin. How on earth do you reconcile those two things? How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

[jmayer1]

Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

You mean the same thing MU did with McMorrow?

[wildbill sb]

You mean the same thing MU did with McMorrow?

Burn!

[ChicosBailBonds]

So let me get this straight, you claim you always want MU to win, are a much bigger MU fan than IU fan (and I assume would pull for MU were the two teams to meet, but feel free to reverse that position/correct me on that), yet based on your many comments the past several months, you obviously believe MU's coach is a cretin. How on earth do you reconcile those two things? How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

I will always cheer for MU over ANY school they play.  Not even a second thought on that, ever.

I'm sorry...I believe MU's coach is a cretin?  Hardly, nor do my "many comments" suggest that.  Perhaps your definition of cretin is different than mine, but when I was growing up a cretin was a dunce, or stupid, even mentally retarded, an idiot.  Please define cretin for me in your terms because I have certainly never labeled Buzz in any of those terms, let along "many comments in the past several months".

So let's start there and the definitions out of the way before I can answer the rest of your post. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You mean the same thing MU did with McMorrow?

Yup...but not the same thing they did with Newbill, but of course there was a reason for that......the on again off again Wilson transfer that was in the works for months finally came through. 

[NavinRJohnson]

So let's start there and the definitions out of the way before I can answer the rest of your post. 

Way to avoid the central issue by picking out one word and trying to dispute what the definition is, when you knew full well what I meant. How about we start with your response to the following...

How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Or, do you first need me to explain what the meaning of 'is' is?

[ChicosBailBonds]

No Navin, I didn't know what you meant which is why I asked.  I also didn't avoid anything and clearly said I would address the rest of your post once I understood what the heck you were saying.

I'm in the car now, I'll answer your post later this morning when I'm not on the iPhone

[jmayer1]

Yup...but not the same thing they did with Newbill, but of course there was a reason for that......the on again off again Wilson transfer that was in the works for months finally came through. 

What was your reaction when MU did it to Saunders just days before school was scheduled to start? I honestly don't know what you said at the time so I'm curious to your thoughts.

I don't know all the facts around either the Saunders or Newbill situations (only a few people do).  I generally don't like oversigning or jettisoning players but since I don't know exactly what happened it is hard for me to make judgements about what happened in either case.  Of course, you (and many others) don't have the same standard and rush to judgement based on speculation and on the comments of whoever is on your side of the fence while dismissing the comments that contradict your stance.

Could you elaborate on your supposed inside knowledge of the possibility of Jamil Wilson transferring and accusations that MU tampered with him?  I'm intrigued as to what you have heard in regards to this subject. 

[Lennys Tap]

What was your reaction when MU did it to Saunders just days before school was scheduled to start? I honestly don't know what you said at the time so I'm curious to your thoughts.

I don't know all the facts around either the Saunders or Newbill situations (only a few people do).  I generally don't like oversigning or jettisoning players but since I don't know exactly what happened it is hard for me to make judgements about what happened in either case.  Of course, you (and many others) don't have the same standard and rush to judgement based on speculation and on the comments of whoever is on your side of the fence while dismissing the comments that contradict your stance.

Could you elaborate on your supposed inside knowledge of the possibility of Jamil Wilson transferring and accusations that MU tampered with him?  I'm intrigued as to what you have heard in regards to this subject. 

Chicos is a changed man. When Saunders was 86ed by TC, he was miffed not at all. His "conscience" regarding matters of this type miraculously came to him the day Buzz was hired. That event was evidently a "St Paul knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus" moment for him. Or proof of an agenda. You decide.

[rocky_warrior]

What was your reaction when MU did it to Saunders just days before school was scheduled to start? I honestly don't know what you said at the time so I'm curious to your thoughts.

I'll turn to the time machine to answer that for chicos.  It seems that it was no big deal, it was just that MU did not have a spot for him - lol.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=3655.msg30979#msg30979

Are MU's academic standards that much higher than Duq's?


Duq had a spot, we didn't.  DS' former coach is on their staff now.  If we had a spot, safe to say DS would probably be on the team here.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I'll turn to the time machine to answer that for chicos.  It seems that it was no big deal, it was just that MU did not have a spot for him - lol.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=3655.msg30979#msg30979

I'd say that's pretty damning.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How many times do I have to say it.  I admitted as such a few months ago....things change.  I used to think Mike Dukakis was great and abortion no big deal.  There are lots of things in life that people change opinions on...this just in.

I also said, CLEARLY, that those two situations were not the same, even though you guys want to conveniently force them into a nice packaged comparison tool.  One was not admitted to the university.  The other hadn't even been considered yet (no application sent in, but had no grade issues and would have been admitted).  One guy was busted for drugs possession, the other guy...well he was just in the way and a holding place until we got the transfer we wanted, which was in the works for months so why did we bother to sign him in the first place?

Ah yes, context and details....always those damn pesky details.  The comparisons are not the same no matter how hard you try.

The great irony, of course, is we should have kept Saunders and got rid of Hazel (or was it Trend?), but that's not what we did.  We got rid of the better player.  What would Buzz have done...get rid of the better player or the worse player that did nothing wrong?

But yes, people change opinions on things.  

Rocky...thanks for the time machine...I did the EXACT same thing a few months ago and was completely above board showing everyone what I said back then and linked to the discussion.  Nothing to hide at all my friend.  In fact there were a few other links as well that I provided.

Here are the ones you missed

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=4512.msg37495#msg37495

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=4112.msg34287#msg34287



Nothing "damning" either, I look back at what Crean did and it was wrong.  I look back at what Buzz did, and it is ALSO wrong...I'd argue that one was MORE wrong than the other, but they were both wrong.  It's one thing to kick a kid to the curb that was arrested on drug possession and NOT ADMITTED to the university vs kicking a kid to the curb that had no grade issues, would have been admitted, had no arrest record, etc.  But some of you apparently don't like those pesky details.

Carry on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Big frickin' deal. Where are they gonna find someone for this year on Dec 2? LOL

Kind of like where is Newbill going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that?  LOL

[ChicosBailBonds]

Way to avoid the central issue by picking out one word and trying to dispute what the definition is, when you knew full well what I meant. How about we start with your response to the following...

How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Or, do you first need me to explain what the meaning of 'is' is?

Navin, do you understand how ONE WORD, as you like to dismiss it, can be central to the entire context?  You said that I had on many occasions \ comments stated Buzz was an idiot.  I never have that I can recall, let alone many times.  So I do take umbrage to that.  I happen to think Buzz is very smart, in fact smarter than he lets on.  Sometimes he goes into his Aw Shucks Gomer Pyle "I'm just some regular coach from the South and I don't understand all this stuff"....not buying it, he's a very smart guy who is consumed with understanding every detail of his business.  That's what he is, an obsessive compulsive (his words, not mine) on this stuff.

So instead of getting defensive, how about a simple apology from you clearing me of ever calling him a cretin, an idiot, dumb, retarded, etc....he's not nor did I ever say it.  Thanks

How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Let me put this in an example that hopefully will translate well.  If I was against the Iraq War but still loved the United States was I tacitly supporting the administration in that war?  Should I have moved to Canada until the war is over?    When the Toyota braking scandal came out (which of course was later proven to be wrong but that's another issue), should I as a Toyota owner have stopped using my vehicle, stopped paying my car payment, etc, for fear that I was somehow supporting Toyota and their "cover-up"?

I can give you dozens more examples, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.

I love Marquette University. I love Marquette basketball.  I poured my sole into that place for 10 years (student and employee) and to this day MU is still using many of the policies, creations that were done during that tenure  I'm very proud of that....especially considering the shoestring budget we had compared to now and the fact the team was not very good.  What you seem to be saying is that if I support MU basketball it means I support EVERYTHING that MU basketball does, players, coaches, etc?  Well, that's just plain wrong just as it is with the other examples I listed above.  It's a silly notion on all levels.  

Maybe Rocky can help you with the time machine and read me blasting Tom Crean for having Jason Rabideaux on his staff, or signing the UWM deal, or how he could have such totally inept plays at the end of a half\game (i.e Dayton game, etc).  

I want Buzz Williams to be successful at Marquette University.  I hope you understand that.  I don't think you do.

[Jay Bee]

 I poured my sole into that place for 10 years

So... is your foot (or fish?) OK?  

In your little 'hate the Iraq war but love the country' example... no, you shouldn't move to Canada until the war is over.  But, you also shouldn't show up at the funeral of dead American soldiers and protest and scream and complain in the face of the soldiers' families.  That is the issue.

[jmayer1]

Kind of like where is Newbill going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that?  LOL

Kind of like where is Saunders going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that? LOL

[jmayer1]

Nothing "damning" either, I look back at what Crean did and it was wrong.  I look back at what Buzz did, and it is ALSO wrong...I'd argue that one was MORE wrong than the other, but they were both wrong.  It's one thing to kick a kid to the curb that was arrested on drug possession and NOT ADMITTED to the university vs kicking a kid to the curb that had no grade issues, would have been admitted, had no arrest record, etc.  But some of you apparently don't like those pesky details.

Carry on.

None of the facts have changed in the Saunders situation since the day MU said Saudners would not be admitted to Marquette.  However, at that time you said "Duq had a spot, we didn't.  DS' former coach is on their staff now.  If we had a spot, safe to say DS would probably be on the team here." So, at that time, you clearly thought that not admitting Saunders was simply done because we didn't have room for him (I agree). 

I also agree that people's expectations, morals, values...etc may change over time, but I don't see how someone's logic, or lack thereof, would change.  3 years ago you logically assumed that Saunders was not let into MU becuase we had no room at the inn.  Now you are backtracking and saying it was due to his arrest or academics, but nothing has changed, what gives? Have you rationally looked at the exact same facts and come to a completely different conclusion.

I'm glad that you have stated what MU did to Saunders was wrong.  Would you feel beter if MU had come out and said that Newbill was not going to be admitted to MU? Would MU have then been less wrong in comparison to the Saunders case since they let Newbill know this 2 months sooner? Saunders was subsequentlly admitted to Duquesne, Newbill was subsequently submitted to Southern Mississippi.  I think these 2 situations are very similar, except that in Saunders' case, MU had already oversigned; while in Newbill's case, MU wanted to sign another guy.  Maybe MU should have taken the Wilson transfer/comittment and then waited until August 27th to let Newbill know that he would not be admitted?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Maybe Rocky can help you with the time machine and read me blasting Tom Crean for having Jason Rabideaux on his staff

Only a guy as radioactive as Rabideaux would put up with the a-hole! And I said as much over and over!