Is it over for DePaul?

[Pardner]

I don't think this shows empirical evidence at all.  It's a demonstration of how to lie with statistics.

For example, according to the chart the 1986-87 season was good for both teams.  

MU, under first year coach Bob Dukiet, finished 16-13.  
Meanwhile, DePaul was 28-3 and reached the Sweet 16.

See--both had winning records!  Both good!  

I, for one, DO NOT consider 86-87 a successful year for MU--certainly not equal to DePaul's success that season. You and Pardner apparently do.  You and I are occupying different universes.    

I'll take a minimum standard of making the NCAA tournament in the same year.  In the 69 years of the NCAA tournament, MU and DePaul have been participants the same year only 6 times--the last occurring 26 years ago.

MU84--I provide data since 1924 that incorporates long-term trends and you pick one season to make your point that I am a liar.  Interesting...that is your typical MO.  Fact is, in their history, recruiting just Chicago has never been the make or break for either program--but the upper hand was gained when either school decided to recruit nationally.  First it was Al, then Joey and Molinari edged DU into the national scene helping Ray, then back to MU with KO and TC, with Kennedy and Leito interspersed.  Did you work in the Nixon White House?

[MUfan12]

It might as well be over for DePaul... embarrasing display by their students in the upper deck today. Chanting "Overrated" up 3-0 a minute in, and booing during the playing of the Alma Mater before the game.

After going to Allstate though, can't say I'm surprised.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I think they had more students at the BC than they get at the allstate.   

[Marquette84]

MU84--I provide data since 1924 that incorporates long-term trends and you pick one season to make your point that I am a liar.  Interesting...that is your typical MO.  Fact is, in their history, recruiting just Chicago has never been the make or break for either program--but the upper hand was gained when either school decided to recruit nationally.  First it was Al, then Joey and Molinari edged DU into the national scene helping Ray, then back to MU with KO and TC, with Kennedy and Leito interspersed.  Did you work in the Nixon White House?

Jeesh--what happened to guys who admit that they were caught red handed trying to manipulate data?

You clearly stated:
"Since 1924, the ups and downs between the two schools have gone hand in hand 92% of the time (correlation).  When MU went up, DU went up.  When MU went down. DU went down"

Don't you think there's a bit of difference between a 16-13 season and a Sweet 16 run?

Apparently not--instead you take me on, suggesting I only have one example?   Do you honestly think I only have one example to expose you as a fool? 

I could have easily used any of Rick Majerus' 3 seasons--1984, 1985 and 1986.  Three NITs for MU.  Three NCAAs for DePaul.

How about 1974?  MU made the championship game while DePaul was marginally over .500.   In my mind, we had wildly different levels of success--but to you, DePaul's 16-9 season with no NCAA and no NIT is "hand in hand" with a Final Four appearance and contribute to 92% similar results.

In 1977 MU won the championship, and DePaul was 15-12.  Again, you claim this is part of the 92% of the time when MU and DePaul were equally successful.

We can go the opposite direction as well.  In 2004 MU missed the NCAA in the year follwing a final four run, while DePaul made it for only the second time in years. 

1981 MU missed the NCAA for the first time in over a decade while DePaul was a top 10 team and wound up 27-2.
1968 MU started their long run of NCAA appearances, while DePaul goes 13-12. 
1968 MU is 24-5, DePaul is 14-11
1972 MU is 25-4, DePaul is 12-11
1973 MU is 25-4, DePaul is 14-11
1975 MU is 23-4. DePaul is 15-10
1981 DePaul lost only 2 games all season, MU missed the NCAAs completely.


Need I go on? 

Suggesting that any year that MU and DePaul both finished above .500 shows that they are "hand in hand" in succes is complete and utter BS.

In fact, there were only SIX times when both MU and DePaul made the NCAA at the same time:

1959
1976
1978
1979
1980
1982

That's it. 

Hardly equates to walking hand-in-hand in success 92% of the time.

You want something to ponder--not a single one of those yellow-clad students at todays game were even ALIVE the last time MU and DePaul appeared in the same NCAA tournament.

[only a warrior]

Ladies, ladies, please... grow up

[dpu70]

Ladies, ladies, please... grow up

Didn't Marinelli recently apologize for saying just that.  Ladies.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090122/SPORTS01/901220418

[dpu70]

Well, now that you saw us play, do you agree that our program is dying?

Did you see our 7'2 project on the floor?
Did you see us try to match up with you by starting 4 guards?
Did you see our Center play 10 mins and foul out?
Did you see all of your steals, cause we can't protect the ball?
Did you see Hayward own the boards, while we sat our 2 freshmen bigs?
Did you see our lack of a Point guard?

There are too many negatives to list them all. 

Nice game.  Good luck the rest of the way.

[Pepperoni_Cannoli]

It might as well be over for DePaul... embarrasing display by their students in the upper deck today. Chanting "Overrated" up 3-0 a minute in, and booing during the playing of the Alma Mater before the game.

After going to Allstate though, can't say I'm surprised.

If you were offended by that, I think maybe you didn't get the joke.

[TallTitan34]

That's just sad then if the students who travel to see thier team are crapping on their team one possesion into the game.

[Pakuni]

Marquette and Louisiana State University have appeared in the same NCAA tournament only FIVE times.
Proof positive that Marquette succeeds when LSU struggles. 

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

If you were offended by that, I think maybe you didn't get the joke.

I have my season tix next to MUFan12, and we were rather amused by the display the entire game.  Like when they chanted "scoreboard" when DePaul were up 7-5.  Or when they started trash-talking our fans in section 427 (where they were seated), and they got drilled with an "0-7" chant by the entire student section and a third of the upper deck.

I don't have a problem with opposing fans generally, particularly ones that know the game and are truly passionate about their program (like I know plenty of DePaul fans are).  But that crew up there yesterday was just a joke, and deserved most every one of the chants/insults hurled at them.  They gave DePaul fans everywhere a bad name, and looked more like they were interested in coming up to get drunk and practice their dancing for a night out in Lincoln Park than actually watching the ballgame.

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

The one thing that those DePaul fans at the game and rest of the MU fans agreed on was when the old dude kissed that old dudette. 

Old people pda makes the world happy.  Instead of the military, let's deploy old people and just have them make out in public.

[muwarrior87]

I think they had more students at the BC than they get at the allstate.   

I said the same thing when I noticed the size of that group.

[Marquette84]

Marquette and Louisiana State University have appeared in the same NCAA tournament only FIVE times.
Proof positive that Marquette succeeds when LSU struggles. 

Your comment is almost as more ignorant than those who claim that if DePaul were good it would help Marquette.

LSU is a complete and utter nonfactor when it comes to mindshare for MU and DePaul the Chicago/Milwaukee region.  We don't compete for students.  We don't compete for recruits.  We don't compete for press coverage in the Chicago media.  Or the national media covering the hot midwest teams.  It's just a non-factor.

Meanwhile, MU and DePaul are similar programs (Urban, Catholic, midwestern) that compete for mindshare, press, recruits, students, etc. in adjacent/overalapping markets.  LSU simply isn't a factor in this region.  

[Pakuni]

Your comment is almost as more ignorant than those who claim that if DePaul were good it would help Marquette.

LSU is a complete and utter nonfactor when it comes to mindshare for MU and DePaul the Chicago/Milwaukee region.  We don't compete for students.  We don't compete for recruits.  We don't compete for press coverage in the Chicago media.  Or the national media covering the hot midwest teams.  It's just a non-factor.

Meanwhile, MU and DePaul are similar programs (Urban, Catholic, midwestern) that compete for mindshare, press, recruits, students, etc. in adjacent/overalapping markets.  LSU simply isn't a factor in this region.  

Sigh ... first, the wink ( ) means it's mean to be taken toungue-in-cheek. Though I suppose it was bit much to expect understanding of that from an insufferable pedant who takes himself as seriously as you.

Secondly, please explain what makes DePaul any different in this realm than Wisconsin, Illinois, Notre Dame, Purdue, etc.
Does MU not compete for students with those universities?
Does the Chicago media not also cover those programs?
Do those schools not comb the Chicago area for recruits?
Last I checked, their success has not prevented Marquette's success. What exactly makes DePaul so darn unique in this regard?

[MUfan12]

If you were offended by that, I think maybe you didn't get the joke.

Wasn't offended in the least... just thought it was pathetic that they were basically ripping on their own team.

I can't wait to take over their arena in a couple weeks.

[Marquette84]

Sigh ... first, the wink ( ) means it's mean to be taken toungue-in-cheek. Though I suppose it was bit much to expect understanding of that from an insufferable pedant who takes himself as seriously as you.

Really?  I don't think your post was tongue in cheek at all.  I think you were dead serious about the point you were trying to make.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have posted this:

Secondly, please explain what makes DePaul any different in this realm than Wisconsin, Illinois, Notre Dame, Purdue, etc.
Does MU not compete for students with those universities?
Does the Chicago media not also cover those programs?
Do those schools not comb the Chicago area for recruits?
Last I checked, their success has not prevented Marquette's success. What exactly makes DePaul so darn unique in this regard?

Lets both be honest:  There was nothing tongue in cheek about your prior post--you were trying to be "cute" by equating DePaul with LSU.  So please, dispense with the mock outrage and namecalling.  You're upset that I didn't just go along with your joke.

You were trying to suggest that since there is no tradeoff of success between MU and LSU, there can be no tradeoff of success between MU and DePaul.   Isn't that EXACTLY what you were implying?

And now you're just pissed because I didn't play your game.   So now you call me names and say that I didn't appreciate the "tongue in cheek" nature of your post.

But yet, you repeat the same message substituting Purdue, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, etc. for LSU in essentially the same message.  No  this time.  I'd say you're serious.

So my reply is largely the same:   MU and DePaul are similar programs (Urban, Catholic, midwestern) that compete for mindshare, press, recruits, students, etc. in adjacent/overalapping markets.  The schools you cite are different enough that they don't factor into the DePaul/Marquette tradeoff.

[Pakuni]

Really?  I don't think your post was tongue in cheek at all.  I think you were dead serious about the point you were trying to make.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have posted this:


Lets both be honest:  There was nothing tongue in cheek about your prior post--you were trying to be "cute" by equating DePaul with LSU.  So please, dispense with the mock outrage and namecalling.  You're upset that I didn't just go along with your joke.

You were trying to suggest that since there is no tradeoff of success between MU and LSU, there can be no tradeoff of success between MU and DePaul.   Isn't that EXACTLY what you were implying?

And now you're just pissed because I didn't play your game.   So now you call me names and say that I didn't appreciate the "tongue in cheek" nature of your post.

But yet, you repeat the same message substituting Purdue, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, etc. for LSU in essentially the same message.  No  this time.  I'd say you're serious.

So my reply is largely the same:   MU and DePaul are similar programs (Urban, Catholic, midwestern) that compete for mindshare, press, recruits, students, etc. in adjacent/overalapping markets.  The schools you cite are different enough that they don't factor into the DePaul/Marquette tradeoff.

Your brilliant powers of perception via Internet connection aside, whether you think I was joking or being dead serious is entirely irrelevant. I thought the wink was a pretty obvious clue, but perhaps next time I'll put it in teal and add some LOLs on the end to make sure everyone catches on.
Pissed? Oh come on. Quite the contrary. I find great humor in your lack of, um ... humor.
But I disgress.
If I understand correctly, your argument is that MU competes for media attention, recruits and "mindshare" because they are similar urban, Catholic universities.
I'll ignore mindshare for now. First I have to figure out how exactly "mindshare" contributes to the success of a college basketball program. Does this mean the Marquette basketball team wins more games if my neighbor is aware of them? Hmmm.  I tend to believe mindshare would be a byproduct of winning, not the other way around. But let me ponder that one a while.

Media attention? That's just laughable. Are you under the mistaken impression the Tribune and Sun-Times sports desks allot a certain amount of coverage each year to "Urban, Catholic, midwestern" programs and when DePaul is down, MU benefits?
Silly. As if media outlets decide which teams to cover, and to what degree, based on religious affiliation and campus environment.
MU is no more likely to benefit from DePaul's struggles than Northwestern, Loyola, UIC, Purdue, Wisconsin or any other school in the region. We can agree that if DePaul is struggling coverage will go elsewhere. But to suggest that coverage will go to Marquette because they are similar programs? Like I said, just laughable.
The reason MU gets so much coverage in the Tribune has nothing to do with DePaul. It's because Dan McGrath, the Trib's sports editor, is an MU grad. The other media outlets in Chicago give MU less attention than Big 10 programs, and much, much less than Notre Dame.

Recruits? That's provably false on any number of levels.
The fact that MU and DePaul both are "Urban, Catholic, midwestern" doens't make them any more of competitors for recruits than MU and Wisconsin, or MU and Illinois or anyone else. Kids don't decide they're going to an "Urban, Catholic, midwestern" school and then pick one. Quite the opposite, they choose from a range of schools of all types.
Dominic James' finalists were Marquette, Notre Dame and Purdue. Three very different campuses and types of schools.
Steve Novak decided between MU, Illinois and Florida. Can you get three more different schools?
Wes Matthews chose between MU (urban, private), Wisconsin (college town, public) and Georgia Tech (urban, public).
Lazar Hayward's other finalists included UConn, Virginia and Seton Hall. Not a "Urban, Catholic, midwestern" among them.
Travis Diener came down to MU, UW and Utah.
Same goes for the priority recruits MU lost out on in recent years, i.e Brian Butch, Bobby Frasor, Iman Shumpert ... none of those guys were considering DePaul or any other "Urban, Catholic, midwestern" schools among their finalists.
Who are all these recruits that choose among "Urban, Catholic, midwestern" programs?
I'll tell you ... they don't exist. Maybe they did in 1972. Not anymore.

But there's even further evidence your argument is bogus. Despite your continuing assertion that MU and DePaul compete uniquely for recruits, the reality is two schools very rarely have competed for recruits over the past 10-15 years.
Both schools were hot and heavy for Q. Richardson. Both went hard after Mac Koshwal. MU had interest in Dar Tucker (as did most schools). That's three in a decade. MU's gone to battle with Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Notre Dame, Michigan State, North Carolina and probably a half dozen other schools on the same number or more occasions in that time. And none of them are "Urban, Catholic, midwestern"

Enjoy your last word.