collapse

* '23-'24 SOTG Tally


2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 Mock Drafts by willie warrior
[Today at 08:46:28 PM]


What do Wisconsinites call people from Illinois? by MU82
[Today at 08:28:59 PM]


2024-25 Roster by jfp61
[Today at 08:05:00 PM]


2025 Bracketology by MarquetteMike1977
[Today at 06:44:09 PM]


Recruiting as of 6/15/24 by Juan Anderson's Mixtape
[Today at 03:08:45 PM]


Oso Article by Herman Cain
[Today at 10:31:08 AM]


More conference realignment talk by WhiteTrash
[June 21, 2024, 09:02:22 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: The long cold summer

Marquette
Marquette

Open Practice

Date/Time: Oct 11, 2024 ???
TV: NA
Schedule for 2023-24
27-10

Author Topic: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?  (Read 2503 times)

CrackedSidewalksSays

  • Guest
What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?

Written by: noreply@blogger.com (Tim Blair)

Cracked Sidewalks is pleased to welcome Mark Henderson to the site as a guest columnist. A 1992 Marquette graduate, Mark is an avid reader of the site and a well-read fan of college basketball.  In this column, he reviews the recruiting histories of recent Final Four and NCAA championship teams to see how their tendencies might relate to Marquette and the future of the program.

*******************
Talent alone is no guarantee of success in the NCAA tournament. Other factors such as coaching, team chemistry, experience, and luck can all play a role. But it takes elite-level talent to build an elite-level program.

Although Marquette has appeared in the Big Dance the past four seasons, questions remain about the future of the program. Can Buzz Williams maintain this level of success? Does MU have what it takes to compete with the best of the Big East, year after year? Is a second national title even a remote possibility?

With these questions in mind, it’s worth analyzing where Marquette stands in comparison to the top college basketball programs in terms of talent. A closer examination of the recruiting records of these programs yields some intriguing answers.

Methodology and notes
This analysis is based on the NCAA Final Four teams from 2006 to 2009 — along with their respective recruiting classes from the four years leading up to their semifinals appearance. In other words, we want to see what kind of high school prospects each team signed to help them reach the Final Four. All recruiting information and rankings come from the rivals.com archive.

First, a couple caveats:

1) Recruiting rankings are imperfect, at best. No two recruiting services ever come up with the exact same list. Some can’t-miss prospects never pan out, while others considered projects become superstars. For our purposes, we’re not concerned with whether a player should be ranked #34 or #89; from a broader perspective, rankings can still prove informative.

2) Signing class lists don’t distinguish between high school prospects and junior college signees with less than four years of eligibility. They also don’t account for fifth-year seniors, transfers or players who declare early for the NBA draft. The influence of these factors will be discussed more in depth later.

Baby Blue chippers
North Carolina’s blowout of Michigan State in the 2009 NCAA championship game confirmed what most experts had predicted as early as a year before. By almost any measure, the Tar Heels were the most talented team in college basketball. A review of their recruiting classes from 2005 to 2008 offers ample proof.

During that four-year period, North Carolina signed an astonishing five 5-star recruits (as rated by rivals.com): Ed Davis, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Hansbrough, Ty Lawson and Brandon Wright. The first four all played at least 34 games during the 2008-09 season and averaged 60 ppg between them; Hansbrough and Lawson were both named All-Americans. Wright declared for the NBA draft following the 2006-07 season.

If that weren’t enough, UNC’s signing classes for 2005-08 also featured seven 4-star recruits: Larry Drew, Bobby Frasor, Marcus Ginyard, Danny Green, Alex Stepheson, Deon Thompson and Tyler Zeller. Four of these — Drew, Frasor, Green and Thompson — played every game of the ‘09 season and would have formed the centerpiece of an NCAA tournament team all by themselves.

Only at a school such as North Carolina is it possible to view 3-star recruits as an afterthought. Head coach Roy Williams and his staff added a couple of those for good measure: Will Graves and Justin Watts.

From 2005 to 2008, only one other program signed more 5-star recruits (Duke, with six). No other program signed more 4-star recruits. The story might have had a very different ending if the team had lost more players to the draft, or if Lawson’s late-season foot injury continued to bother him. But the end result should come as a surprise to no one.

While this post focuses on Final Four teams, the case of Duke makes an interesting side note. It’s a team that never quite lived up to its potential, for a variety of reasons. Two of its 5-star recruits, Gerald Henderson and Kyle Singler, became true impact players. But Josh McRoberts left for the NBA following the 2006-07 season. And the others — Greg Paulus, Brian Zoubek and Elliot Williams — have been inconsistent contributors. All the same, the Blue Devils had enough talent to finish second in the ACC and advance to the Sweet 16 before falling to Villanova.

A not-so-Spartan roster
Michigan State may have been over-matched by the Tar Heels, but that’s not to say Tom Izzo’s team was undeserving. Hardly. The Spartans were one of the most talented teams in the country, as a review of their recent recruiting classes shows.

MSU signed one 5-star recruit between 2005 and 2008: Delvon Roe. Big deal, right? That’s just the start. During the same period, the Spartans also signed an impressive six 4-star recruits (Chris Allen, Tom Herzog, Kalin Lucas, Korie Lucious, Raymar Morgan, Durrell Summers) and five 3-star recruits (Isaiah Dahlman, Draymond Green, Maurice Joseph, Austin Thornton, Travis Walton).

Throw in redshirt senior Goran Suton — a 3-star recruit from the Class of 2004 — and you have a team that could legitimately play at least 10-deep. Just not quite on the same level as UNC.

Recruiting by numbers
Connecticut entered the 2009 season expecting to challenge for the national title and came up just short. Their Final Four run is no accident. But oh, what could have been.

In the years 2005 to 2008, UConn matched North Carolina by signing five 5-star recruits: Andrew Bynum, Curtis Kelly, Ater Majok, Stanley Robinson and Kemba Walker. Robinson and Walker emerged as true leaders for the Huskies, especially down the stretch. The same can’t be said for the others. Bynum opted to go straight to the NBA out of high school. Kelly transferred to Kansas State after two seasons of limited playing time. Meanwhile, eligibility and recruiting issues may prevent Majok from ever taking the court for Connecticut.


Don’t feel sorry for Jim Calhoun just yet. He also signed up six 4-star recruits: Jeff Adrien, Jerome Dyson, Marcus Johnson, Nate Miles, Hasheem Thabeet and Doug Wiggins. Then, eight 3-star recruits: Craig Austrie, Donnell Beverly, Ben Eaves, Gavin Edwards, Robert Garrison, Scottie Haralson, Jonathan Mandeldove and Chukwuma Okwandu. If you’re counting, that’s a grand total of 19 ranked recruits. Plus, fifth-year senior A.J. Price (a 4-star recruit from the Class of 2004).

Even with the transfers of Johnson and Wiggins, Connecticut was still positioned to make a run at North Carolina — at least until the mid-season injury of Jerome Dyson.

The Philadelphia story
Notice a pattern emerging? You can expect more of the same from Villanova.

Between 2005 and 2008, the Wildcats signed two 5-star recruits (Corey Fisher, Corey Stokes), two 4-star recruits (Antonio Pena, Scottie Reynolds) and seven 3-star recruits (Shane Clark, Dante Cunningham, Casiem Drummond, Malcolm Grant, Andrew Ott, Reggie Redding and Maurice Sutton).  Oh, and don’t forget fifth-year senior Dwayne Anderson, a Class of 2004 3-star recruit.

Eight of those players (Cunningham, Reynolds, Fisher, Stokes, Anderson, Redding, Clark and Pena) all averaged at least 17 mpg last season and formed the heart of the Villanova rotation. As with Michigan State, not quite on the same level as UNC. But it’s clear that Jay Wright and his staff worked hard to assemble a team loaded with top-level athletes.

Same old story
The trend continues as you look back at other Final Four and championship teams. Kansas in ’08? Six 5-star recruits, six 4-star recruits and three 3-star recruits. Memphis, last year’s runner-up? Three 5-star recruits, seven 4-star recruits, eight 3-star recruits (an incredible 18 ranked recruits in all). How about the ‘07 champion Florida? Eight 4-star recruits and 8 3-star recruits. And so on.

The lone exception from the past four NCAA tournaments: George Mason in 2006. Perhaps the ultimate Cinderella team, the Patriots roster included a mere three 3-star recruits: Kevin Mickens, Jesus Urbina and Sammie Hernandez. Breaking down that anomaly is the subject of another post.

Just don’t expect it to happen again anytime soon. Since 2006, Final Four teams have signed an average of 12.9 ranked recruits — including 7.8 recruits rated 4 stars or better. The air becomes even more rarified for NCAA champions, who signed 15.3 ranked recruits (9.5 of them rated 4 stars or better) on average.

So what’s it mean for Marquette?
Well, that depends. The good news is that Marquette’s incoming class is a strong one, rated just as highly as the Class of 2005 featuring James, Matthews and McNeal.

Here’s a review of the four signing classes leading up to the 2009-10 season:
  • Four 4-star recruits: Junior Cadougan, Lazar Hayward, Jeronne Maymon and Erik Williams.
  • Five 3-star recruits: Dwight Buycks, Scott Christopherson, Joe Fulce, Darius Johnson-Odom, Pat Hazel.
Clearly, Buzz Williams has accomplished a lot in his first year on the job — especially considering that Hayward is the only ranked recruit signed by Crean who’s still with the team.

That’s probably not enough to contend for the Big East title next year, especially given the team’s inexperience. A fifth straight NCAA appearance is certainly a realistic goal. Beyond that, we’ll have to wait and see.

Williams seems to have an affinity for talent; the unexpected emergence of Jimmy Butler is evidence of that. Unheralded recruits such as Chris Otule, Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro, Monterale Clark and Aaron Bowen may surprise, as well — plus MU has at least one more scholarship available for the Class of 2010. But it will likely be another year after that before we know if Marquette is ready to take the next step forward as a program.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/05/what-does-it-take-to-make-final-four.html

ATWizJr

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 01:21:40 PM »
Great data to have.   It's like we've all said, what makes great coaches?  Having great players!

Thanks!

Canned Goods n Ammo

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5008
  • Ammo, clean shaven Ammo.
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 01:28:32 PM »
This is great analysis.

BUT, can you please tell me if it's more important to have great guards, or great big men?

Kidding, kidding. I don't want to start that debate.

I think you need to have good players at all 5 positions to be a final 4 team.

79Warrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4111
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 02:16:10 PM »

Interesting three star recruits.

Hazel did little, Fulce, although hurt, did not show much and Scott is gone. Makes you really wonder about the "star" system.

Thomas' Danish Delight

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 725
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 02:23:57 PM »
Interesting three star recruits.

Hazel did little, Fulce, although hurt, did not show much and Scott is gone. Makes you really wonder about the "star" system.

I wouldn't hate on Fulce too much...he did have one game where he put up like...ten points, wasn't it?  He was hurt and never got to get his groove for the season.

Hopefully, he's healed up despite Buzz saying he hasn't been the same after his surgery...but I hope he's back to being the player that I think most thought would be better than Butler...and if Fulce can be at least as good as Butler is for us now, then I think he'll be pretty solid. 

Nukem2

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 02:27:03 PM »
Interesting three star recruits.

Hazel did little, Fulce, although hurt, did not show much and Scott is gone. Makes you really wonder about the "star" system.
Hazel was obviously over-rated; but, the three star rating can be deceptive as it covers a lot of players.  Fulce actully looked quite good in October before his injury and I suspect he'll not disappoint unless the the injury does restrict him.  Scott is now at his second BCS-league school; so, the coaches must see something.  Scott would have definitely been a contibutor as a zone buster; but, he saw that his playing time was going to be restricted to that (whether the coach was going to be TC or Buzz).  Not so sure he'll get any more PT at Iowa State.

bamamarquettefan

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1299
  • pudner-at-aspen-ideas-festival.jpg
    • Value Add Basketball
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 12:22:30 AM »
Great work, and welcome!  It is interesting that I basically did the opposite end of what you are doing - measured NCAA runs based on how many players were drafted by the NBA within two years of the team in question, while you calculated it based on how the players were ranked in high school BEFORE starting their college careers. Yet the results are similar.  Particularly George Mason as the only exception - no 4 or 5 stars, and no NBA draftees.  I believe I had more than 2,000 teams this decade with NO NBA draftees, and Mason was one of only three to make the Elite 8.

While no system is perfect, it sounds like the teams with guys who were 4 and 5-star recruits typically also have a lot of the same guys go onto the NBA - and win NCAA tourney games in between.  Of course, your systme is more fun because you can pick out he potential winners before their careers even start, whereas mine has to wait until the mock NBA drafts come out.
The www.valueaddsports.com analysis of basketball, football and baseball players are intended to neither be too hot or too cold - hundreds immerse themselves in studies of stats not of interest to broader fan bases (too hot), while others still insist on pure observation (too cold).

MR.HAYWARD

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1701
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 11:15:22 AM »
can someone please show me where hazel was ever even a 3 star...1 star and 2 stars from everything i remember.

Also, let's hope we dont make the final for because we all know that once you make the final 4 and join a big time conference you can no longer recruit. remeber that was Creans problem according to the resident theorist. 


http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=8&c=1&nid=2411158
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 11:17:06 AM by MR.HAYWARD »

bilsu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8832
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 06:58:22 PM »
I think we have a very good class coming in, but inexperience losses games. We could let the newcomers play and redshirt Hayward saving him for the next year when the team should be very good. I know that will not happen, but it would be the best way to have a really good team 2010-2011.

NCMUFan

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2568
Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] What Does It Take to Make the Final Four?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2009, 10:58:21 PM »
Wow, that is funny, let's keep redshirting our best players until we have a team that is equal in talent to UNC or Duke.

 

feedback