Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 01:16:13 PMI was a senior that year and the mood on campus was very dark after Al made that decision. I do not recall anyone at the time saying that the NIT was "on par" with the NCAA tourney. Even back then, we knew the NIT was a distant second, but I know that you are referring to the after-the-fact BS arguments.

According to Gasaway in Miracles on Hardwood, Marquette's assistant to the president called Al to try to change his mind. Al's response allegedly was "Father, I don't hear confession, and you don't coach this team".

The Marquette Tribune tried to put a positive spin on Al's decision, but no one was buying it. Hearing about Al's decision was absolutely awful- a HUGE gut punch. 

I was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.

Snoop

While I was a very young guy in 1970, I am pretty familiar with the NIT situation and it was not dark time for anyone in the inside circle. I would argue that the decision to go to NIT was one of the most influential decisions in program history, and a positive one.

That decision solidified MU and Al as a force to be taken seriously. More importantly, getting the win in the Garden added to the decision. Lose the NIT and it might have been a different story.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PMI was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.

Ah, you be a septuagenarian (like me).

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PMI was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.

You "assume" WAY too much Lenny. By dark I meant unhappy. I did not say "up in arms", but you did. Some "assertion". Instead of asking what I meant, you decided that you knew what I meant. You missed it. Too bad. Next time, take a deep breath and THINK before you post crap like this.

Quote from: Goose on January 05, 2025, 09:35:43 PMSnoop

While I was a very young guy in 1970, I am pretty familiar with the NIT situation and it was not dark time for anyone in the inside circle. I would argue that the decision to go to NIT was one of the most influential decisions in program history, and a positive one.

That decision solidified MU and Al as a force to be taken seriously. More importantly, getting the win in the Garden added to the decision. Lose the NIT and it might have been a different story.

We have different recollections Goose. We went to the second best tourney when we had a chance to go to the best one. Yes, students enjoyed MU winning the NIT and celebrated. That does not change the missed opportunity. There was no "up in arms" about Al's decision, but disappointment.

I appreciate the tone of your post that, unlike Lenny's, politely disagreed with me rather than distorting what I wrote. Of course, that's his M.O. on so many of his posts, so I should not be surprised. He's a shoot first, ask questions later kind of guy. 

Where's Oilcan when you need 'em?

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 10:07:38 PMYou "assume" WAY too much Lenny. By dark I meant unhappy. I did not say "up in arms", but you did. Some "assertion". Instead of asking what I meant, you decided that you knew what I meant. You missed it. Too bad. Next time, take a deep breath and THINK before you post crap like this.

Now you say dark. By dark did you mean VERY dark? Because that's what you wrote. So I guess you meant that everyone was VERY unhappy. The mood on campus and among players, coaches and fans was not very dark. The press, the players and most fans backed Al's decision and celebrated every win, especially the semi final over Maravich and the final over Al's alma mater St John's.

I'm sorry the whole thing left you very dark and very unhappy. I'm sorry that for you it was it was a huge gut punch. You missed some great celebrations.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 10:19:26 PMWe have different recollections Goose. We went to the second best tourney when we had a chance to go to the best one. Yes, students enjoyed MU winning the NIT and celebrated. That does not change the missed opportunity. There was no "up in arms" about Al's decision, but disappointment.

I appreciate the tone of your post that, unlike Lenny's, politely disagreed with me rather than distorting what I wrote. Of course, that's his M.O. on so many of his posts, so I should not be surprised. He's a shoot first, ask questions later kind of guy. 

Quote from: Goose on January 05, 2025, 09:35:43 PMSnoop

While I was a very young guy in 1970, I am pretty familiar with the NIT situation and it was not dark time for anyone in the inside circle. I would argue that the decision to go to NIT was one of the most influential decisions in program history, and a positive one.

That decision solidified MU and Al as a force to be taken seriously. More importantly, getting the win in the Garden added to the decision. Lose the NIT and it might have been a different story.

Spot on Goose.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 10:40:12 PMNow you say dark. By dark did you mean VERY dark? Because that's what you wrote. So I guess you meant that everyone was VERY unhappy. The mood on campus and among players, coaches and fans was not very dark. The press, the players and most fans backed Al's decision and celebrated every win, especially the semi final over Maravich and the final over Al's alma mater St John's.

I'm sorry the whole thing left you very dark and very unhappy. I'm sorry that for you it was it was a huge gut punch. You missed some great celebrations.

I'm sorry that you lack reading comprehension. Once again, you have decided to rewrite my post. You decided that I wrote "everyone" was unhappy" and that I did not enjoy the celebrations.

We missed a chance to probably play the mega power in college bball, UCLA, for an NCAA natty and took an NIT natty instead over St. Johns. I watched the NIT games, was happy that we won, but did not enjoy the NCAA championship game as much. There were plenty of students who shared my take. I spoke with them, but of course this will be taken as another opportunity to rewrite my post.

Notice that scoopers hope for a second natty. No one ever posted "I hope we win another NIT championship."

Also notice that you get into a ton of fights with a lot of scoopers.    You get up in arms. Of course, you're right, they're wrong, and that settles it. 

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 06, 2025, 06:21:05 AMI'm sorry that you lack reading comprehension. Once again, you have decided to rewrite my post. You decided that I wrote "everyone" was unhappy" and that I did not enjoy the celebrations.

We missed a chance to probably play the mega power in college bball, UCLA, for an NCAA natty and took an NIT natty instead over St. Johns. I watched the NIT games, was happy that we won, but did not enjoy the NCAA championship game as much. There were plenty of students who shared my take. I spoke with them, but of course this will be taken as another opportunity to rewrite my post.

Notice that scoopers hope for a second natty. No one ever posted "I hope we win another NIT championship."

Also notice that you get into a ton of fights with a lot of scoopers.    You get up in arms. Of course, you're right, they're wrong, and that settles it. 

Tons of fights? LOL. How many fights in a ton? Meanwhile, your contributions consist of attacks on Muggsy and piling on in other discussions. Or misrepresenting Marquette's past.
In March of 1970 the mood on campus was not very dark. Hearing about Al's decision was not awful and it wasn't a HUGE gut punch - for the players and coaches and for the vast majority of Marquette students and fans. Maybe personally for you, but not as a general rule.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 06:43:51 AMTons of fights? LOL. How many fights in a ton? Meanwhile, your contributions consist of attacks on Muggsy and piling on in other discussions. Or misrepresenting Marquette's past.
In March of 1970 the mood on campus was not very dark. Hearing about Al's decision was not awful and it wasn't a HUGE gut punch - for the players and coaches and for the vast majority of Marquette students and fans. Maybe personally for you, but not as a general rule.

  I think you take first place for "perpetually pissed" on scoop. You might want to check the "What's wrong with people" thread. Time for another post by you there.  Posts # 134 and #135 are interesting.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PMI was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.

Little nit: It may have been the second one. I was on one in '67 when we made the finals of the NIT in Al's third year.

Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 07:55:46 AMLittle nit: It may have been the second one. I was on one in '67 when we made the finals of the NIT in Al's third year.

I remember that! It was fun.

Quote from: Jockey on January 01, 2025, 12:52:43 PMWe are in the 2nd golden age of MU basketball.

So C- is about right. If not 1st, it can't be better than a 'C'.


As an aside, we really are in the 2nd golden age. ENJOY IT, people. Too many here can't accept success when they see it. Al would have been crucified on Scoop.

2nd Golden Age? Well, we are the Golden eagles!  But that Crean-Buzz era, all things DWade, Crowder BE POY, F4, E8...I think Shaka gets there...and maybe beyond, but let's hold off for a few more seasons before making declarations of glory.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 06:43:51 AMTons of fights? LOL. How many fights in a ton?

I don't really have a dog in this race but let's be honest your feud with Chicos was in every thread for a good 5 years.

Quote from: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PMWould a Natty in 2025 catapult the Shaka era to the best ever?

I assume not quite. How many extra good to great seasons would be needed?

I wasn't around for the Al years.

So much for 5 years to judge

I was and if we landed a Natty, it would be on par with the Al era.

Coach Shaka has done something few have done at Marquette, win from the outset. His approach to basketball is much like Al's -- defense first -- though his style is very different.

I agree with Goose. We're in for a long run of very good basketball, so long as someone in the administration doesn't screw it up. I'm hopeful this will be the renaissance of if not the greatest era ever of Marquette basketball.

I don't know if MU wins another natty.  Too many things have to go right.  A run similar to Gonzaga's would be OK.  Sustained excellence.

Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2025, 09:39:20 AMI don't know if MU wins another natty.  Too many things have to go right.  A run similar to Gonzaga's would be OK.  Sustained excellence.

Yep. I want us to win another title, and I think we have the necessary things in place to do so, but it takes so much luck as well as tremendous skill.

As one who wondered aloud a few years ago why Marquette couldn't be the next Villanova or next Gonzaga, I agree that a long stretch of sustained excellence would be wonderful.

Quote from: dgies9156 on January 06, 2025, 09:33:40 AMI was and if we landed a Natty, it would be on par with the Al era.

Coach Shaka has done something few have done at Marquette, win from the outset. His approach to basketball is much like Al's -- defense first -- though his style is very different.

I agree with Goose. We're in for a long run of very good basketball, so long as someone in the administration doesn't screw it up. I'm hopeful this will be the renaissance of if not the greatest era ever of Marquette basketball.

Shaka and Marquette are the perfect basketball marriage partners. Love it!

Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 07:55:46 AMLittle nit: It may have been the second one. I was on one in '67 when we made the finals of the NIT in Al's third year.

Yep, we were up by maybe 9 at half vs SIU, but Clyde Frazier and the Salukis boat raced us in the 2nd half. Think we lost by around 15 or so.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 02:24:34 PMYep, we were up by maybe 9 at half vs SIU, but Clyde Frazier and the Salukis boat raced us in the 2nd half. Think we lost by around 15 or so.

Think we beat UMass and Dr. J in the semis although I'm old may be misremembering. NIT wasn't the NCAA, but there were some pretty good teams playing in it. Only 24 or maybe 32 teams made the Big Dance at that time.

Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 02:49:13 PMThink we beat UMass and Dr. J in the semis although I'm old may be misremembering. NIT wasn't the NCAA, but there were some pretty good teams playing in it. Only 24 or maybe 32 teams made the Big Dance at that time.

We actually beat UMass and Dr J in the first round of our 1970 NIT championship run.

In 1967 our most notable NIT win was by 1 point over a Jimmy Walker led Providence team.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 03:22:32 PMWe actually beat UMass and Dr J in the first round of our 1970 NIT championship run.

In 1967 our most notable NIT win was by 1 point over a Jimmy Walker led Providence team.

There you go. I knew we beat a pretty good player in '67. Jimmy Walker was in the back of my mind, but I couldn't remember when we played him. Thanks.

That sounds like dyn-o-mite

Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 03:31:08 PMThere you go. I knew we beat a pretty good player in '67. Jimmy Walker was in the back of my mind, but I couldn't remember when we played him. Thanks.

You bet