Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 09, 2024, 12:13:11 PMThis will be populated with individual voters shortly but 6 seems very fair.

https://collegepolltracker.com/basketball/team/marquette-golden-eagles/2024

Campaign to replace the message board from 247 to Scoop

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 09, 2024, 12:13:11 PMThis will be populated with individual voters shortly but 6 seems very fair.

https://collegepolltracker.com/basketball/team/marquette-golden-eagles/2024

Now that this is updated, holy hell there are some bad ballots out there. It doesn't matter of course but when we're only 21 points off 4th, seeing ballots with Clemson, Oklahoma, or Houston ahead of us really makes me (re)question how much some of these voters actually follow the sport. It does somewhat balance out though, because I'm not sure how someone can justify putting us 2nd, but ISU 6th. Bad ballots all around.

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 09, 2024, 02:30:10 PMI'm not sure how someone can justify putting us 2nd, but ISU 6th. Bad ballots all around.

I think you could make the case Marquette has a stronger resume than Iowa State, but to just completely ignore the head-to-head matchup is crazy.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 09, 2024, 02:40:08 PMI think you could make the case Marquette has a stronger resume than Iowa State, but to just completely ignore the head-to-head matchup is crazy.

I mean, I can see someone justifying it by saying that Hilton Magic, Zaide being out, and Chase being out for 75% of the game is worth about 11 points.

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 09, 2024, 02:30:10 PMNow that this is updated, holy hell there are some bad ballots out there. It doesn't matter of course but when we're only 21 points off 4th, seeing ballots with Clemson, Oklahoma, or Houston ahead of us really makes me (re)question how much some of these voters actually follow the sport.

Let's see:

Clemson - Voter who's really high on Kentucky and think that "upset" (KenPom had Clemson favored by a few points) deserves a high ranking

Oklahoma - Voter who thinks "they're a high major who's undefeated in December and won the Battle of Atlanis, of course they're a top 5 team"

Houston - Voter who turns in the 25 highest ranked KenPom teams in order every week

Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 09, 2024, 12:13:11 PMThis will be populated with individual voters shortly but 6 seems very fair.

https://collegepolltracker.com/basketball/team/marquette-golden-eagles/2024

Dick Vitale did MU a solid

NM

Quote from: Herman Cain on December 10, 2024, 05:27:21 PMBig East NET rankings as of games of December 9, 2024
New Old
7   6   Marquette   
22   24   UConn
37   38   St. John's
58   59   Butler   
65   66   Villanova   
69   70   DePaul   
75   75   Creighton   
76   77   Providence   
90   90   Xavier   
100   100   Georgetown   
206   210   Seton Hall   

Why did you post that here?

Quote from: Its DJOver on December 09, 2024, 02:30:10 PMNow that this is updated, holy hell there are some bad ballots out there. It doesn't matter of course but when we're only 21 points off 4th, seeing ballots with Clemson, Oklahoma, or Houston ahead of us really makes me (re)question how much some of these voters actually follow the sport. It does somewhat balance out though, because I'm not sure how someone can justify putting us 2nd, but ISU 6th. Bad ballots all around.

Ya the ap ballot is actually a complete joke. For whatever reason everyone continues to refer to it as the end all be all.

Kenpom, net, and t rank are all much better.

Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 11, 2024, 01:20:49 PMYa the ap ballot is actually a complete joke. For whatever reason everyone continues to refer to it as the end all be all.

Kenpom, net, and t rank are all much better.

The people who actually matter - those on the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee - ignore the polls and use the data sources you mention (and others).

The AP poll is what it's always been - a conversation starter about a series of signposts and snapshots throughout each season.

Would you rather reach #1 in the AP poll this season or #1 on Kenpom? Obviously correlated but for me the answer is clearly Kenpom

Quote from: Carl on December 11, 2024, 08:49:23 PMWould you rather reach #1 in the AP poll this season or #1 on Kenpom? Obviously correlated but for me the answer is clearly Kenpom

In the season? #1 in the AP Poll, because it would be the first time in my lifetime memory and it would break the record (held by Ohio State) for the longest period of time between #1 rankings.

Ultimately, the only one that matters is the ranking for the final AP Poll, and I would MUCH rather be #1 in that final ranking than kenpom, because that is always your national champion (kenpom often is not).

Quote from: Carl on December 11, 2024, 08:49:23 PMWould you rather reach #1 in the AP poll this season or #1 on Kenpom? Obviously correlated but for me the answer is clearly Kenpom

Well that's insane.

Quote from: Carl on December 11, 2024, 08:49:23 PMWould you rather reach #1 in the AP poll this season or #1 on Kenpom? Obviously correlated but for me the answer is clearly Kenpom

Sure. Maybe the networks will stop showing the AP poll rankings of teams and switch to Kenpom.

Quote from: Carl on December 11, 2024, 08:49:23 PMWould you rather reach #1 in the AP poll this season or #1 on Kenpom? Obviously correlated but for me the answer is clearly Kenpom

AP, and by a mile.

At least with the AP poll, you get recognition on a national scale. I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of the college basketball audience has never even heard of kenpom, nor would I be surprised if at least 80% of our potential recruits have never heard of kenpom. But #1 in the AP poll is there to see on the ESPN scroll 100 times a day.

And as brew said, we know the #1 team in the final AP poll is the national champion.

Quote from: MU82 on December 11, 2024, 09:18:45 PMAP, and by a mile.

At least with the AP poll, you get recognition on a national scale. I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of the college basketball audience has never even heard of kenpom, nor would I be surprised if at least 80% of our potential recruits have never heard of kenpom. But #1 in the AP poll is there to see on the ESPN scroll 100 times a day.

And as brew said, we know the #1 team in the final AP poll is the national champion.

50% of our recruits post "Blessed to have received an offer from the University of Marquette".

Silly question I suppose, because a rise to #1 in Kenpom would require about 15 dominant performances in a row, and would certainly be reflected in the AP. I guess my point was that I'd rather be the unbiased best rather than plinko up the rankings bc other teams lose. Of course AP #1 has more tangible benefits, but still, I'd be more impressed if the numbers said #1

Also I acknowledge the rare air we are having this conversation in. Last year Marquette played a game for #1 in Maui that we lost. I think we played a game for #1 last week in Ames too. Fun time to be a Marquette fan. That ranking is still not out of the question this year

Quote from: Carl on December 11, 2024, 09:45:53 PMSilly question I suppose, because a rise to #1 in Kenpom would require about 15 dominant performances in a row, and would certainly be reflected in the AP. I guess my point was that I'd rather be the unbiased best rather than plinko up the rankings bc other teams lose. Of course AP #1 has more tangible benefits, but still, I'd be more impressed if the numbers said #1

3 of the last 7 NCAA Tournaments ended with Gonzaga holding the #1 rank in kenpom. Zero of them ended with Gonzaga holding the national championship. But the AP #1 went to the champs every time.

Well...yeah. AP is a post-mortem the week after the tourney. All results are in

I'll rephrase.

Would you be more confident going into the tournament if you were #1 in a the AP of if you were #1 in Kenpom?

Quote from: Carl on December 11, 2024, 10:00:23 PMI'll rephrase.

Would you be more confident going into the tournament if you were #1 in a the AP of if you were #1 in Kenpom?

AP that will reflect our resume and fully who we have beaten.

Not predictive numbers on how we should fair.

Houston is high in Kenpom all the time. Flop when it matters.

Cherry picking at its finest. Considering the variability of a single elim tournament... let's take champ out of it. Call it final 4, or even elite 8. You're telling me you value that a recency biased beat reporter from Clevelands top 25 AP submission over Kenpom? Any one of us could fill out a top 25. What's with the distaste for advanced metrics?

Predictive numbers aren't saying how we should fare. Predictive numbers are a reflection of what has happened on the court. Everything that goes into them is driven by on-court data points.

Again, I care more about the AP ranking for the reasons I mentioned, but any time someone goes with the "forget the analytics" it's just idiotic. Like saying the scoreboard doesn't matter.

All analytic models are is a bigger, broader, more detailed scoreboard.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but it feels like I'm taking crazy pills. Of course predictive metrics like Kenpom have no bearing on how we will fare. The comparison was to AP ranking. Does that?