Quote from: #UnleashSean on November 25, 2024, 09:32:43 AMI'm betting this thread will have 20 pages by the end of the year. With each side saying told you so depending on which streak gold is on.

I'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team

Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 25, 2024, 09:35:02 AMI'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team

Gold is one 12 rebound, 3 block, 1-8 3pt game away from this thread exploding.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 25, 2024, 09:35:02 AMI'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team

This.

Quote from: #UnleashSean on November 25, 2024, 09:36:44 AMGold is one 12 rebound, 3 block, 1-8 3pt game away from this thread exploding.

You're not wrong but that says more about his board than Gold

Quote from: BM1090 on November 25, 2024, 10:40:43 AMYou're not wrong but that says more about his board than Gold

Ohhh yes! You would think that on a bball fan board, you would not need to explain that. It's not rocket science.

Ben's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:

• 2024-25: 30.8%
• 2023-24: 35.9%
• 2022-23: 30.0%
• Career: 33.5%

Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:

• 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
  
• 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
• 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
  
• 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
• 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
  
• 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
• Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
  
• Career Undesignated: 23.1%

I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 10:46:10 AMBen's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:

• 2024-25: 30.8%
• 2023-24: 35.9%
• 2022-23: 30.0%
• Career: 33.5%

Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:

• 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
  
• 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
• 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
  
• 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
• 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
  
• 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
• Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
  
• Career Undesignated: 23.1%

I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.

That's absolutely crazy, but I will take that all day long vs. hitting threes against cupcakes.

Quote from: BM1090 on November 25, 2024, 10:40:43 AMYou're not wrong but that says more about his board than Gold

I was making a joke directed at the board. Not gold.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 25, 2024, 09:35:02 AMI'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team

Knows ball.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 25, 2024, 12:00:07 PMKnows ball.

100%

Ben's defensive contributions have been so impressive. I never expected him to be this effective replacing Oso on the defensive end. (Not saying he's Oso, but he's way, way better than I expected)

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 12:04:02 PM100%

Ben's defensive contributions have been so impressive. I never expected him to be this effective replacing Oso on the defensive end. (Not saying he's Oso, but he's way, way better than I expected)

Agreed, and as Tower has pointed out, the scheme has changed to help Ben and the other bigs out.  While we used to just let Oso shut off the point of attack on a full on switch to the guard, we are now hard hedging and recovering with our big.  Both are effective for the personnel that was deploying the scheme.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 10:46:10 AMBen's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:

• 2024-25: 30.8%
• 2023-24: 35.9%
• 2022-23: 30.0%
• Career: 33.5%

Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:

• 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
  
• 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
• 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
  
• 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
• 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
  
• 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
• Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
  
• Career Undesignated: 23.1%

I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.

Since we can usually win the easier games in spite of his shooting woes I'd be ok with this trend continuing.....lol

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 10:46:10 AMBen's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:

• 2024-25: 30.8%
• 2023-24: 35.9%
• 2022-23: 30.0%
• Career: 33.5%

Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:

• 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
  
• 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
• 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
  
• 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
• 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
  
• 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
• Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
  
• Career Undesignated: 23.1%

I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.

Great stuff Brew.

Is Joplin an inverse of this?
I know that it takes a lot of work, but I'd love the data on Jop.
Seems like he loves the Davids, but shrinks a bit versus the Goliaths, and I wonder if the data backs that up?

Quote from: DoctorV on November 25, 2024, 12:50:01 PMGreat stuff Brew.

Is Joplin an inverse of this?
I know that it takes a lot of work, but I'd love the data on Jop.
Seems like he loves the Davids, but shrinks a bit versus the Goliaths, and I wonder if the data backs that up?

Joplin isn't as straight a shot in that regard, though last year that would be an understandable conclusion. I'd love to see a split in his large gym vs small gym numbers, as so many of his outbursts (Georgia, DePaul, GMU at the Al) seem to come in smaller venues. Here are his splits:

• 2024-25 Total: 28.0%
• 2024-25 Tier A&B: 33.3%
• 2024-25 undesignated: 23.1%
  
• 2023-24 Total: 35.5%
• 2023-24 Tier A&B: 29.7%
• 2023-24 undesignated: 45.3%
  
• 2022-23 Total: 39.9%
• 2022-23 Tier A&B: 41.7%
• 2022-23 undesignated: 36.9%
  
• 2021-22 Total: 28.8%
• 2021-22 Tier A&B: 28.6%
• 2021-22 undesignated: 29.2%
  
• Career Total: 35.4%
• Career Tier A&B: 34.1%
• Career undesignated: 37.4%

Quote from: wadesworld on November 25, 2024, 12:08:11 PMAgreed, and as Tower has pointed out, the scheme has changed to help Ben and the other bigs out.  While we used to just let Oso shut off the point of attack on a full on switch to the guard, we are now hard hedging and recovering with our big.  Both are effective for the personnel that was deploying the scheme.

We also get better pressure up top because Ross is so much better at staying in front of and/or denying his man than TK was. Gold is doing a great job, for sure, but it's a little easier to play post defense when perimeter players are being smothered by the likes of Ross and Stevie.

As for shooting ... if Gold and Joplin shoot even 35% in games (so like a combined 5-for-14), we will be tough to beat. If they shoot close to like they did against Georgia, we are a Final Four team.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 12:04:02 PM100%

Ben's defensive contributions have been so impressive. I never expected him to be this effective replacing Oso on the defensive end. (Not saying he's Oso, but he's way, way better than I expected)

I think that is a result of the coach. No one expected either Ben or Jop would be as good defensively as they are.

Ans, of course, the hard work put in by the players.

Board don't know

Quote from: #UnleashSean on November 25, 2024, 11:09:48 AMI was making a joke directed at the board. Not gold.

I know

Quote from: Jockey on November 25, 2024, 02:17:21 PMI think that is a result of the coach. No one expected either Ben or Jop would be as good defensively as they are.

Ans, of course, the hard work put in by the players.

No doubt. So impressive how well this staff has done identifying and recruiting players that develop in the system.

Quote from: MU82 on November 13, 2024, 05:36:04 PMThis is becoming one of the favorite topics here on Scoop. We have some folks saying Gold has never been a very good shooter, or that he only had one hot streak last season, or that Shaka shouldn't be giving Gold so much freedom to take open 3s. And, of course, we have one joyless mope who can't mention Ben without ripping him.

I thought these stats from last season pretty strongly support Shaka's faith in Gold's 3-point shooting:

First 13 games (11/6 - 12/22) - 16-for-42 (.381)
Next 5 games (12/28 - 1/20) - 0-for-12 (.000)
Next 10 games (1/24 - 2/28) - 13-for-35 (.371)
Next game (3/2 v Creighton) - 1-for-8 (.125)
Final 8 games (3/6 - 3/29) - 12-for-20 (.600).

So Gold actually had three lengthy good-shooting streaks last season. And aside from those 6 awful games in which he was 1-for-20, Gold was 41-for-97.

That's .423 over 31 games, a significant sample size.

Now, one could argue that Gold shouldn't be shooting an average of seven 3s a game, as that's about double last season's average. Or that Shaka shouldn't build his offense around Gold (and I don't believe Shaka has). But I think we'd all be quite happy about any player shooting .423 from 3 over 31 games this season.

It's up to Gold to hit the wide-open shots that the Shaka/Nevada offense creates for him. Joplin, too. If they don't, I agree with the more "concerned" Scoopers about our prospects for this season.

However, I like to think that, over the course of a long season, each will shoot about what he did in 2023-24 (around 36%). Marquette can win lots and lots of games if they do.

Joplin hitting 40%, as he did as a soph, would be even better ... but that's another thread!

Quote from: BM1090 on November 14, 2024, 05:04:24 PMI'd agree. You look back at his misses and makes and his makes almost always come when he's square to the hoop and set up to shoot. On his misses he's usually on his heels and fading a bit. Gotta correct those mechanics.

Jop I think is the better shooter or at least has higher potential with his shooting. Especially when contested.

Gold is more athletic and quicker.

But I do think they are similar players at this stage.

Jop can really make that fadeaway and shoot from deeper but golds shooting form needs to be fixed, although it did look better against UGA.

After all the consternation about his poor shooting in the first three games, Gold is 9-for-20 (.450) from 3 over the last four games. Plus outstanding defense.

We could use a little more rebounding from him, but I'd take Ben over the vast majority of D-1 centers.

Quote from: MU82 on November 28, 2024, 01:39:42 PMAfter all the consternation about his poor shooting in the first three games, Gold is 9-for-20 (.450) from 3 over the last four games. Plus outstanding defense.

We could use a little more rebounding from him, but I'd take Ben over the vast majority of D-1 centers.

His form (arc) has improved considerably.