A bad trade, a bad roster mix, no draft capital, and two poor coaching hires. He does have a title.

Wades has pointed out the terrible drafting. I thought the trade was fine because they had to do something - they were going nowhere bringing that bad back and their shooting had been a problem in consecutive playoff seasons.

But the coaching hires have been REALLY bad. Griffin was a terrible mistake, and Rivers pretty much leveraged them into a $40 million contract so they're pretty much stuck with him. The problem with getting rid of Horst would be that Rivers would likely gain more influence - and that's not a good thing.

The drafting was bad, but the trades made are the trades he had to make. The coaching moves are the ones that will destroy him.

I don't see giving up Holiday for a guy that wants the ball as much as Giannis. Lillard is a great player but he and Giannis don't fit together. They had and have issues but I wouldn't have traded Giannis or Holiday to address them. The drafting and total depletion of draft capital alone should put him on the hot seat. The coaching hires make me throw up a little in my mouth.

They needed shooting. Dame and Giannis are friendly and had talked about playing together before. They needed to do something to show Giannis they were going to continue to compete so he'd sign his Super Max. Giving up Holiday was the price they had to pay for that.

But they needed an actual coach to make it work.

They needed shooting but they didn't need a primary shot taker, IMO. To state the obvious, they were better with Holiday. I agree that the coaching hasn't helped.

Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 03, 2024, 07:42:03 PMThey needed shooting. Dame and Giannis are friendly and had talked about playing together before. They needed to do something to show Giannis they were going to continue to compete so he'd sign his Super Max. Giving up Holiday was the price they had to pay for that.

But they needed an actual coach to make it work.

They took a big swing, but overestimated the amount that Giannis would be willing to change to work with Dame. And as you said, Griffin wasn't gonna be the voice to get him to realize it.

To answer the OP, yes, Horst probably won't make it to the All Star break. It was made clear to him that his job was on the line this year.

What is scary is if they do make the move, who is gonna navigate the deadline? Don't want Doc doing it. Milt Newton, maybe? The last thing I want is Haslam's family getting more influence on Bucks matters.

Quote from: Zog from Margo on November 03, 2024, 10:57:06 PMTo state the obvious, they were better with Holiday. I agree that the coaching hasn't helped.

In the regular season, sure. Jrue was brutal in the playoffs, and they needed shot creation from somewhere when the wall got put up on Giannis.

The real problem was not parting ways with Khris the year after the chip.  He eats up a ton of money, and his production hasn't be awesome... plus he's injured all the time.

Quote from: MUfan12 on November 04, 2024, 09:37:53 AMThey took a big swing, but overestimated the amount that Giannis would be willing to change to work with Dame. And as you said, Griffin wasn't gonna be the voice to get him to realize it.

To answer the OP, yes, Horst probably won't make it to the All Star break. It was made clear to him that his job was on the line this year.

What is scary is if they do make the move, who is gonna navigate the deadline? Don't want Doc doing it. Milt Newton, maybe? The last thing I want is Haslam's family getting more influence on Bucks matters.

In the regular season, sure. Jrue was brutal in the playoffs, and they needed shot creation from somewhere when the wall got put up on Giannis.

If it's true that they made it known to Horst that he's very much on the hot seat, then the FO is full of POS people for not letting him interview for the President of Basketball Ops position with the Pistons.

Also, Jrue was incredible as the 3rd option (behind Giannis and Middleton).  His problem came when Middleton missed (most of) the Playoffs in 2022 and Giannis missed (most of) the Playoffs in 2023 and he had to  move up to #2 for the Bucks.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 04, 2024, 11:32:28 AMAlso, Jrue was incredible as the 3rd option (behind Giannis and Middleton).  His problem came when Middleton missed (most of) the Playoffs in 2022 and Giannis missed (most of) the Playoffs in 2023 and he had to  move up to #2 for the Bucks.

He was pretty bad offensively in 2021.

Quote from: MUfan12 on November 04, 2024, 09:37:53 AMThey took a big swing, but overestimated the amount that Giannis would be willing to change to work with Dame. And as you said, Griffin wasn't gonna be the voice to get him to realize it.

To answer the OP, yes, Horst probably won't make it to the All Star break. It was made clear to him that his job was on the line this year.

What is scary is if they do make the move, who is gonna navigate the deadline? Don't want Doc doing it. Milt Newton, maybe? The last thing I want is Haslam's family getting more influence on Bucks matters.

In the regular season, sure. Jrue was brutal in the playoffs, and they needed shot creation from somewhere when the wall got put up on Giannis.

I appreciate the insight. Personally, I would have tried to trade Middleton a while ago. I always thought he was overrated as an all-around player. That said, I will defer to those who follow the NBA more closely. I did not like the idea of losing Holliday's defense. Doc seems like a good guy and I enjoyed watching him play at MU. That said, I was hoping they would bring in a Xs and Os coach who brought a little more innovation on the offensive end (Atkinson?).

I saw a rumor that Giannis nixed a Middleton deal in the past. Maybe for Jimmy Butler.

I think trading Middleton might have reduced the likelihood of Giannis signing an extension.

Quote from: cheebs09 on November 04, 2024, 01:45:27 PMI saw a rumor that Giannis nixed a Middleton deal in the past. Maybe for Jimmy Butler.

I think trading Middleton might have reduced the likelihood of Giannis signing an extension.

I heard something like that too.  It's easy to say we should have traded Middleton, but who could have foreseen his injury issues?  It's hard to contribute when you're sidelined all the time...

Quote from: cheebs09 on November 04, 2024, 01:45:27 PMI saw a rumor that Giannis nixed a Middleton deal in the past. Maybe for Jimmy Butler.

I think trading Middleton might have reduced the likelihood of Giannis signing an extension.

That was when Jimmy was in Minnesota. I think it probably had to do more with not wanting to play with Jimmy vs. trading Khris. I don't think Giannis is as adamant now.

If this continues to go tits up I think everyone can, and should, be on the trading block. I'll always be grateful for Giannis' years here, but I've heard some rumblings that make me think it's only a matter of time.

Middleton was who they wanted to trade for Dame. But Portland held out for Jrue.

Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 04, 2024, 02:29:58 PMMiddleton was who they wanted to trade for Dame. But Portland held out for Jrue.

Middleton wasn't eligible to be traded until February.  He had just signed a new contract.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 04, 2024, 02:31:44 PMMiddleton wasn't eligible to be traded until February.  He had just signed a new contract.

Well then I remembered that wrong.

I said after last season that Dame had to go. Didn't mix well with Giannis and I didn't see it being any better this year.

Now they are stuck with an old team with little athleticism (compared to other teams).

#34 runs the team and frankly he's chitty at it, aina?

Dame was a bad acquisition.
They held onto Middleton too long.
Portis is not good enough to be 6th man.
No good drafts.
Getting rid of Jrue - a guy who the Olympic coach cannot sit - was a huge mistake.  Jrue is just a winner.
All that means the GM needs to go.

Quote from: WarriorFan on November 08, 2024, 06:00:17 AMDame was a bad acquisition.
They held onto Middleton too long.
Portis is not good enough to be 6th man.
No good drafts.
Getting rid of Jrue - a guy who the Olympic coach cannot sit - was a huge mistake.  Jrue is just a winner.
All that means the GM needs to go.

Jrue is just a winner...except for the times he underperformed as the #2 option in both '22 and '23. Look, I love the guy. But he can't be your number two option on a championship team. He's just not that consistent of a scorer.

Look, because of the problems in the drafting that you identified and holding onto Khris too long, they had to do SOMETHING. They couldn't just roll it back. The Dame trade looks like it wasn't great. But you have to trade assets to get assets and the only one that was going to bring back value was Jrue.

Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 08, 2024, 06:54:09 AMJrue is just a winner...except for the times he underperformed as the #2 option in both '22 and '23. Look, I love the guy. But he can't be your number two option on a championship team. He's just not that consistent of a scorer.

Look, because of the problems in the drafting that you identified and holding onto Khris too long, they had to do SOMETHING. They couldn't just roll it back. The Dame trade looks like it wasn't great. But you have to trade assets to get assets and the only one that was going to bring back value was Jrue.

Just trade for Sam Hauser and build around him.  He's a winner

Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 08, 2024, 07:11:35 AMJust trade for Sam Hauser and build around him.  He's a winner

That family knows how to play ball.