Rather than continue an argument that derails the Joshua Clark thread, I choose to start a new thread. For the record, I don't hate the portal. Clearly, it can be used to supplement what a team already has (UConn), or you can use it to start a new team every year. (Xavier, DePaul)
Shaka is opting to eschew it for now, betting on himself and his culture. Calipari is saying he only wants 8-9 scholarship players anyway.
Do you like what Shaka is doing? Why or why not? DienerTime thinks that Shaka is being shortsighted and not taking advantage of an available tool. Certainly, a defensible position. I am not even sure he is wrong. What say you?
Let's beat it to death here, rather than other threads about recruits.
I am in favor of what Shaka is doing, for the most part. What we have seen on a yearly basis is a vetting process that has generated buy-in and led to springtimes without the chaos of other programs while delivering top-15 results consistently. Looking at the numbers some of these guys are supposedly getting and I can only imagine how much money TK, Kam, Oso, Gold, Chase, Stevie, or just about any of our other players could have been promised had they entered the portal these past couple years. But what the staff is doing is working to retain players, and I cannot applaud that enough.
I do think that if they can continue developing players, this is a brilliant model. It is zagging when everyone else zigs, and should allow for more consistency of results and as we've seen, continuity that leads to constant team improvement. I get the idea of being worried about how Amadou, Hamilton, and Smith will develop as unheralded prospects, but we've seen Oso develop, Gold is getting there, and when it didn't work out, Itejere moved on (though I think he still could've been a productive bench player here).
We have a small sample size, so it's too early to really read too much into it, and we need to see guys like Chase, Gold, Tre, and Zaide (among others) take the steps that TK, O-Max, Stevie, Oso, and Kam have before them, but if the staff can continue to identify and retain, it should sustain itself.
My biggest gripe is how much Shaka is out there saying that we aren't a transfer program. I don't think you have to do that to send a signal to the high school ranks. You will always be able to recruit high school players, but saying "we don't do transfers" kind of closes the door to it in the future. It will make it more difficult to create those relationships in a short period with handlers and players when you do need to dig into the transfer portal. I've already heard talk about some players being turned off by Marquette's portal aversion and NIL approach. You can choose to not take transfers and not openly talk about how you don't take transfers. That's the one thing I would change.
In favor of Shaka's model for two reasons:
1) he and the staff have shown it can successfully develop and keep players (thus putting the program in position to be successful at high level)
2) we have indirectly benefited from a market trend, as a majority of teams seek to utilize the portal to improve a team (and disregard recruiting/developing HS players to accomplish this). We are the outliers here, and it can be helpful in recruiting.
If there's any "wish" I'd like to see is, eventually, Shaka reels in a big fish (HS stud) that could be a one and done or a two and done player. At some point, the staff will miss on a HS player (or the development of a class would not come in at high level). A transfer or high level one and done will undoubtedly be necessary. But it's not today and hopefully not next year either.
I don't necessarily have a preference, I just want whatever system that is in place to be successful. Since Shaka has been successful with this model, I'm all in.
If he really is against using the portal, then he will either sink or swim with his philosophy. Personally against the whole concept of the portal, but it looks like it will be around for a while, so might as well use it for some players that seem to fit. Biggest concern is that other BEast teams are using it and some having success, like UCONN, and look what it has done for them. Nothing wrong with developing your players over time, and you can be successful with that, but it likely will not get you into the upper echelons of college BB. We shall see how it goes for Shaka's philosophy.
I'll bite.......Two portal players in the past would have helped the team, but Shaka declined that route as you described. Shaka recruits for development and culture, other programs recruit for players ready now and to fill the voids from graduation and other departures. Huge concept differences and the culture development thing takes time.
- Been regurgitated many times, but Shaka did not replace Omax with a portal player. Instead one slot went to an unheralded player (Hamilton), who redshirted and provided nothing to the team because of the redshirt. Shaka recruited players (Norman, Lowery and AL), who saw limited playing time, all of whom did not play a single minute in the last two NCAAT games, with a depleted and injured squad. Still don't get that. Now, Hamilton could be the next coming and maybe play, moving Gold to the four aspect, where he has played for two years and where he belongs.
- Shaka did not use the portal to recruit a point guard to replace Kolek, which I feel will bite him in the butt in upcoming year. Instead he Shaka signed another unheralded player who is going to redshirt. Kam playing point guard as opposed to off guard is going to take a toll on him physically and will have to create a lot of his own shots. Norman must go through a very, very huge development/improvement over the summer to prove he is worthy as a point guard.
- Shaka could have went to portal and replaced Oso, leaving Gold to remain at the 4 spot, but maybe he knows something we do not for the center portion, so I trust him in that aspect.
Shaka being hard headed about the portal is his business and we can only provide opinions of what maybe should have done. I'll stick with the belief of one portal player per year, the last two would have benefited the team. Culture can only go so far, so next season will be based on the culture/development of Norman, Lowery, Al and the two freshmen.
Looking forward to see what happens in October. So many issues......
Now 2025 recruiting will be fun to watch, Shaka going to need a big haul and maybe he can get a top 50 recruit or so.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 01:37:43 PM
I'll bite.......Two portal players in the past would have helped the team, but Shaka declined that route as you described. Shaka recruits for development and culture, other programs recruit for players ready now and to fill the voids from graduation and other departures. Huge concept differences and the culture development thing takes time.
- Been regurgitated many times, but Shaka did not replace Omax with a portal player. Instead one slot went to an unheralded player (Hamilton), who redshirted and provided nothing to the team because of the redshirt. Shaka recruited players (Norman, Lowery and AL), who saw limited playing time, all of whom did not play a single minute in the last two NCAAT games, with a depleted and injured squad. Still don't get that. Now, Hamilton could be the next coming and maybe play, moving Gold to the four aspect, where he has played for two years and where he belongs.
- Shaka did not use the portal to recruit a point guard to replace Kolek, which I feel will bite him in the butt in upcoming year. Instead he Shaka signed another unheralded player who is going to redshirt. Kam playing point guard as opposed to off guard is going to take a toll on him physically and will have to create a lot of his own shots. Norman must go through a very, very huge development/improvement over the summer to prove he is worthy as a point guard.
- Shaka could have went to portal and replaced Oso, leaving Gold to remain at the 4 spot, but maybe he knows something we do not for the center portion, so I trust him in that aspect.
Shaka being hard headed about the portal is his business and we can only provide opinions of what maybe should have done. I'll stick with the belief of one portal player per year, the last two would have benefited the team. Culture can only go so far, so next season will be based on the culture/development of Norman, Lowery, Al and the two freshmen.
Looking forward to see what happens in October. So many issues......
Now 2025 recruiting will be fun to watch, Shaka going to need a big haul and maybe he can get a top 50 recruit or so.
Ben ain't a 4. Jop was the Omax replacement.
Roster continuity in college hoops is a great thing. Stacking and sustaining success is a lot easier when you can allow players to get older on your roster. Based on our small sample size, it appears this staff can identify and maximize talent. OMax got drafted and it appears TKO and Oso are about to get drafted. Those players also won a lot of games.
The portal is one-and-done on steroids. There will be successes where rosters are built this way. I wouldn't go that way, however. Filling 3-4 spots yearly due to lost talent is yeoman's work. Rebuilding chemistry and finding the right fits on the fly isn't easy. I'd rather fill 1-2 spots this way based on early departures or a recruiting miss.
A couple of things will happen. Eventually, the portal will be regulated and compensation for players will be tied into scholarships/contracts at specific schools. The Covid extra year is ending as well. Rosters and filling them will be different because of it.
Finally, Shaka isn't dumb. He's selling something at the moment and sees a market imbalance. This is fluid. While I appreciate what he's selling, he's no dummy and will certainly utilize the portal when need be. He's simply not doing it at the cost of one of his guys losing minutes or his spot on the depth chart. Willing to bet a large chunk of the coaches across the country wish they were doing the same.
Things change fast. At this moment, embrace his philosophy but don't get too attached because it's liable to change
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 13, 2024, 01:45:15 PM
Ben ain't a 4. Jop was the Omax replacement.
Ben ain't a five, he plays at the three point line and waits for ball to shoot, but that's another discussion for the next season for you guys.
Joplin was his replacement, but who replaced Joplin? Gold for Oso, Ross for the others and no one else on the team because the freshmen were non existent. That was my opinion on a portal guy and I'll stand by it.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 01:53:44 PM
Ben ain't a five, he plays at the three point line and waits for ball to shoot, but that's another discussion for the next season for you guys.
Joplin was his replacement, but who replaced Joplin? Gold for Oso, Ross for the others and no one else on the team because the freshmen were non existent. That was my opinion on a portal guy and I'll stand by it.
Ben's a modern 5. He defends the other teams 5. He did so when he was on the court at the same time as Oso. A 6'-11" 245 lb player with the footspeed that Ben has is not going to be a 4.
We had 170 returning minutes last offseason. That means you are either offering a potential transfer a bench position, which no transfer that would move the needle would take, or guaranteeing him a starting spot and then trying to replace both O-Max and Jop in the same offseason, and also sending the message to everyone on your roster that being the 6th man of the year the previous season is not enough to get a starting spot the following year.
I'll stick with my opinion on Gold. He'll be in foul trouble within the first eight minutes. But, that's a subject for a different thread.
Bringing in a player to take Omax's spot, maybe would have Joplin to continue to coming off the bench and being a great contributor as a sixth man again. Again, it's a culture, culture thing and to worry about hurting a player's feelings as opposed to what is best for the team is Shaka's decision then. He is the coach and again I'll stay with my opinion on the non portal replacement.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 02:07:11 PM
I'll stick with my opinion on Gold. He'll be in foul trouble within the first eight minutes. But, that's a subject for a different thread.
Bringing in a player to take Omax's spot, maybe would have Joplin to continue to coming off the bench and being a great contributor as a sixth man again. Again, it's a culture, culture thing and to worry about hurting a player's feelings as opposed to what is best for the team is Shaka's decision then. He is the coach and again I'll stay with my opinion on the non portal replacement.
Could not disagree more about Ben. His foul rate was remarkably similar to Oso's as a Sophomore.
What was best for the team was not having to replace two players. Maybe Jop would have been okay with a transfer coming in ahead of him and continuing to come off the bench. I would highly doubt it, but maybe. And it wouldn't be just hurting a players feelings, it would be sending a message to everyone of the underclassmen that being 6th man of the year is not enough to get a starting spot the next year.
As I said earlier, I see the portal as a tool. No more, no less. It is currently how a lot of teams are playing the game. Shaka has chosen his path. I agree that advertising you will not use the portal is not the way to go. The season will come where the personalities and the culture don't match up and 3-4 guys leave. He had better use the portal then. And he will have to eat a little crow. Until then, I am enjoying watching MU go against the zeitgeist.
NYG, I get your concerns. Shaka is using an old school approach in a new school world. Once upon a time, retention and development, getting old and staying old, recruiting a replacement two classes later was the goal. Now, it feels like a bit of a high wire act, betting that 2 of the 4 of Hamilton, Amadou, Owens, and Parham are going to be able to be rotational players up front. That Tre and Zaide take steps forward. That Kam can handle the point for the majority of possessions. (FWIW, I have not given up on Stevie running the point. But that is my hang up)
But then I see bidding wars. And reported $2 million bag drops. Granted, many of those numbers are probably as inflated as the heights listed in the program. But I absolutely want MU to stay out of that as long as possible. If that means that Shaka lands a good 3 man class for 25, nobody leaves unexpectedly, and MU is not a player for another season, cool.
I think there are two important factors to consider when taking this model wholly into account:
1) If they go to the portal, who leaves? Part of the continuity model is that we've seen Tyler and Oso go from role-player to star, in large part because the portal wasn't used to bring someone in ahead of them. If instead of using scholarships on freshmen Gold and Sean in 2022 we instead brought in Manny Bates and Courtney Ramey? Might that have led Oso and Tyler to transfer? Or had a downstream effect on younger players? The one plus to staying out of the portal is sending a signal to your own team that they have the chance to play their way into those roles. In doing so, continuity breeds continuity.
2) The portal is about to become a lot less valuable and more expensive. One of the big positives of the COVID year has been the influx of players into the portal. Because of COVID seniors, we are getting about 300-400 extra players in the portal, of which probably 100-150 are good enough to either start or at least be contributors at the high major level. Next year, that extra year dries up, which means the number of high-value players in the portal will be roughly cut in half. Yes, I know there are 1,800+ players in the portal, but at the highest level, maybe 250-300 are HM caliber, and of those half are fifth year players. That will lead to a decrease in portal supply and an increase in how much the players that are worth it in the portal are getting. Programs that are highly reliant on the portal are about to either pay far more to keep getting the level of talent they are or will be priced out of the market and left with depleted rosters come the start of the season. Staying the course could pay off as everyone else has to deal with a sharply changing reality next spring.
Brew if that happens (portal supply down and salaries way up) it will mean high majors will have to pay more to retain. I think it's actually bearish for shakas strategy.
The bigger swing factor in my mind is the amount of dough going into NIL by individuals/boosters. If that stays high the portal will remain active until NIL salaries find an equilibrium.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 13, 2024, 01:45:54 PM
The portal is one-and-done on steroids. There will be successes where rosters are built this way. I wouldn't go that way, however. Filling 3-4 spots yearly due to lost talent is yeoman's work. Rebuilding chemistry and finding the right fits on the fly isn't easy. I'd rather fill 1-2 spots this way based on early departures or a recruiting miss.
A couple of things will happen. Eventually, the portal will be regulated and compensation for players will be tied into scholarships/contracts at specific schools. The Covid extra year is ending as well. Rosters and filling them will be different because of it.
Finally, Shaka isn't dumb. He's selling something at the moment and sees a market imbalance. This is fluid. While I appreciate what he's selling, he's no dummy and will certainly utilize the portal when need be. He's simply not doing it at the cost of one of his guys losing minutes or his spot on the depth chart. Willing to bet a large chunk of the coaches across the country wish they were doing the same.
Things change fast. At this moment, embrace his philosophy but don't get too attached because it's liable to change
This is really well said. I don't think it's a blanket anti-portal policy as much as anti-this version of the portal.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 13, 2024, 02:11:54 PM
Could not disagree more about Ben. His foul rate was remarkably similar to Oso's as a Sophomore.
What was best for the team was not having to replace two players. Maybe Jop would have been okay with a transfer coming in ahead of him and continuing to come off the bench. I would highly doubt it, but maybe. And it wouldn't be just hurting a players feelings, it would be sending a message to everyone of the underclassmen that being 6th man of the year is not enough to get a starting spot the next year.
Again, if sending messages hurts a player's feeling, then they should move on. They have to earn the starting spots based on performance on the court, not just sitting on the bench awaiting it. All the major programs recruit/transfer portal players and their feelings/messages are not a concern. This is not elementary school, this is a major college basketball program, where expectations are or were extremely high the past two years, with two players who about to be drafted into the NBA. There are many others on this board who felt the same way about replacing Omax with a portal guy. Maybe Joplin happy/OK with coming off bench and continuing his performance, yes. But, it didn't happen and it is in the past, and we'll never know what difference it would have made.
I don't think what we're seeing will sustain itself. First, I'm sure that the announced dollar figures players are getting are not real. When you hear Great Osobor is making $2M, I'm guessing that's the best case scenario if he hits every possible parameter of his contracts. And as results don't measure up to dollar spent, I don't think you'll see boosters continue to pour this much in. Look at Villanova, who reportedly spent big last year, but have been comparatively quiet this year, not adding nearly the perceived level of talent or production. I am guessing that's a booster signal saying they aren't going to shell out big bucks for an NIT team. As more and more boosters see money being spent to produce mediocre results (which will be the case for most schools as only 16/year make the second weekend and 4 make the Final Four, no matter how much is spent) I'm guessing the excitement to splash big bucks for menial reward will wear off.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2024, 02:15:00 PM
As I said earlier, I see the portal as a tool. No more, no less. It is currently how a lot of teams are playing the game. Shaka has chosen his path. I agree that advertising you will not use the portal is not the way to go. The season will come where the personalities and the culture don't match up and 3-4 guys leave. He had better use the portal then. And he will have to eat a little crow. Until then, I am enjoying watching MU go against the zeitgeist.
NYG, I get your concerns. Shaka is using an old school approach in a new school world. Once upon a time, retention and development, getting old and staying old, recruiting a replacement two classes later was the goal. Now, it feels like a bit of a high wire act, betting that 2 of the 4 of Hamilton, Amadou, Owens, and Parham are going to be able to be rotational players up front. That Tre and Zaide take steps forward. That Kam can handle the point for the majority of possessions. (FWIW, I have not given up on Stevie running the point. But that is my hang up)
But then I see bidding wars. And reported $2 million bag drops. Granted, many of those numbers are probably as inflated as the heights listed in the program. But I absolutely want MU to stay out of that as long as possible. If that means that Shaka lands a good 3 man class for 25, nobody leaves unexpectedly, and MU is not a player for another season, cool.
Thats why next year should be very interesting. There are so, so many questions and as you said it will be a high wire act, betting on the development of every player not named Kam, Joplin and Mitchell.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 02:36:51 PM
Again, if sending messages hurts a player's feeling, then they should move on. They have to earn the starting spots based on performance on the court, not just sitting on the bench awaiting it. All the major programs recruit/transfer portal players and their feelings/messages are not a concern. This is not elementary school, this is a major college basketball program, where expectations are or were extremely high the past two years, with two players who about to be drafted into the NBA. There are many others on this board who felt the same way about replacing Omax with a portal guy. Maybe Joplin happy/OK with coming off bench and continuing his performance, yes. But, it didn't happen and it is in the past, and we'll never know what difference it would have made.
It doesn't just send a message to one player, it sends a message to every player. That message is the opposite of the bolded. It's that even if you earn it on the court by being the 6th man of the year, you will still get recruited over.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 02:36:51 PM
Again, if sending messages hurts a player's feeling, then they should move on. They have to earn the starting spots based on performance on the court, not just sitting on the bench awaiting it. All the major programs recruit/transfer portal players and their feelings/messages are not a concern. This is not elementary school, this is a major college basketball program, where expectations are or were extremely high the past two years, with two players who about to be drafted into the NBA. There are many others on this board who felt the same way about replacing Omax with a portal guy. Maybe Joplin happy/OK with coming off bench and continuing his performance, yes. But, it didn't happen and it is in the past, and we'll never know what difference it would have made.
Correct, but it just as easily could've upset team chemistry and led to worse results. Maybe we could've added top-50 transfer Jordan Minor, who went to Virginia. The idea would've been "perfect, we have our O-Max replacement" but might that have led Joplin or someone else to transfer? Minor played less than 15 mpg, averaging 4 ppg/3 rpg for a team that barely made the NCAA Tournament.
This isn't a video game. Adding a player doesn't guarantee team or individual success, and can make both things worse.
NYG, I think Shaka using the portal in non-desperate times will come down to these things:
Is there an opening?
Does the coaching staff perceive a need?
Is the player a clear upgrade?
Will they fit culturally?
Will they come to MU without a huge bag drop?
Go 5-5 in non-desperate times and we will see.
It depends on the year & particular circumstances.
PS- no judging of Shaka allowed for another two years.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 13, 2024, 02:16:36 PM
I think there are two important factors to consider when taking this model wholly into account:
2) The portal is about to become a lot less valuable and more expensive. One of the big positives of the COVID year has been the influx of players into the portal. Because of COVID seniors, we are getting about 300-400 extra players in the portal, of which probably 100-150 are good enough to either start or at least be contributors at the high major level. Next year, that extra year dries up, which means the number of high-value players in the portal will be roughly cut in half. Yes, I know there are 1,800+ players in the portal, but at the highest level, maybe 250-300 are HM caliber, and of those half are fifth year players. That will lead to a decrease in portal supply and an increase in how much the players that are worth it in the portal are getting. Programs that are highly reliant on the portal are about to either pay far more to keep getting the level of talent they are or will be priced out of the market and left with depleted rosters come the start of the season. Staying the course could pay off as everyone else has to deal with a sharply changing reality next spring.
Or the sharks start swimming in our waters and throw money out that anyone would be a fool to say no to and then they leave.
I don't think Shaka's strategy is sustainable. Furthermore, I feel that we had a great window of opportunity to be serious national title contenders. I am with nyg in that we should have probably added a portal player last year to replace Omax and this year to fill in at pg, 3-point shooter or a big. I believe we wasted a chance last year and are going to waste it again this year.
Big Papi, do you see the Pitino, Calipari, Sean Miller, Holtmann model as sustainable?
The portal and what it is today, is not what was a year ago and will be different next year.
Like Brew said, with covid years gone, next year will be interesting.
Then we will see what happens after that with the continued lawsuits out there and if collegiate athletes end up becoming employees. That might stabalize what is currently the wild wild west.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2024, 02:57:38 PM
Big Papi, do you see the Pitino, Calipari, Sean Miller, Holtmann model as sustainable?
I do not but that is not what I am asking Shaka to do. I think the UConn method works just fine where you bring in 1-2 targeted portal players that will elevate your team and keep it at a high level.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 02:36:51 PM
Again, if sending messages hurts a player's feeling, then they should move on. They have to earn the starting spots based on performance on the court, not just sitting on the bench awaiting it. All the major programs recruit/transfer portal players and their feelings/messages are not a concern. This is not elementary school, this is a major college basketball program, where expectations are or were extremely high the past two years, with two players who about to be drafted into the NBA. There are many others on this board who felt the same way about replacing Omax with a portal guy. Maybe Joplin happy/OK with coming off bench and continuing his performance, yes. But, it didn't happen and it is in the past, and we'll never know what difference it would have made.
Do you not accept the fact that Shaka believed Jop moving into the starters role was also best for the team vs. him just not wanting to hurt his feelings?
Quote from: Big Papi on May 13, 2024, 02:52:19 PM
Or the sharks start swimming in our waters and throw money out that anyone would be a fool to say no to and then they leave.
I don't think Shaka's strategy is sustainable. Furthermore, I feel that we had a great window of opportunity to be serious national title contenders. I am with nyg in that we should have probably added a portal player last year to replace Omax and this year to fill in at pg, 3-point shooter or a big. I believe we wasted a chance last year and are going to waste it again this year.
Well, an agreement...... Like I said previously, the two spots each year were taken by two players who redshirted. But it will be this year to see what happens. #2 seed losing in first round and #2 seed with two NBA draftees not making Elite 8 and losing to a #14 seed in consecutive years. Not good. This year, well we will see and have fun with it.
Opinions are just that, opinions. The facts are clear, but will Shaka change his philosophy next year with some really major holes to fill.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 03:08:54 PM
Well, an agreement...... Like I said previously, the two spots each year were taken by two players who redshirted. But it will be this year to see what happens. #2 seed losing in first round and #2 seed with two NBA draftees not making Elite 8 and losing to a #14 seed in consecutive years. Not good. This year, well we will see and have fun with it.
Opinions are just that, opinions. The facts are clear, but will Shaka change his philosophy next year with some really major holes to fill.
What
Wow, having the opinion that the last two years were "not good" must have missed the previous decade.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 13, 2024, 03:12:31 PM
Wow, having the opinion that the last two years were "not good" must have missed the previous decade.
And also listed a few things that didn't happen.
We didn't lose in the first round as a 2 seed either year. We lost to a 7 seed in the second round and an 11 seed in the S16. Not to a 14 either year.
NC State was the only disappointment for me the last two years, and that was less about the loss and more because of how we played.
NYG, you got some facts wrong.
Anyway, my opinion is that, barring departures, MU will have fewer questions a season from now than they have now. Yes, I am optimistic about development.
Quote from: Big Papi on May 13, 2024, 03:00:26 PM
I do not but that is not what I am asking Shaka to do. I think the UConn method works just fine where you bring in 1-2 targeted portal players that will elevate your team and keep it at a high level.
UConn can use the "UConn method" because they have elite resources and won two titles. They can basically select.
It's a lot different animal for MU. Especially when starting minutes aren't close to guaranteed.
Sorry, should have left last sentence out. My bad, DJO had me going today which I don't usually do. I'll go back to just monitoring post mode now.....
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 13, 2024, 02:37:57 PM
I don't think what we're seeing will sustain itself. First, I'm sure that the announced dollar figures players are getting are not real. When you hear Great Osobor is making $2M, I'm guessing that's the best case scenario if he hits every possible parameter of his contracts. And as results don't measure up to dollar spent, I don't think you'll see boosters continue to pour this much in. Look at Villanova, who reportedly spent big last year, but have been comparatively quiet this year, not adding nearly the perceived level of talent or production. I am guessing that's a booster signal saying they aren't going to shell out big bucks for an NIT team. As more and more boosters see money being spent to produce mediocre results (which will be the case for most schools as only 16/year make the second weekend and 4 make the Final Four, no matter how much is spent) I'm guessing the excitement to splash big bucks for menial reward will wear off.
You can't put your name on a small forward that leads you to the Round of 32, but your name on a weight room is there forever. Boosters eventually will return to wanting to see something tangible for their spend.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 03:19:11 PM
Sorry, should have left last sentence out. My bad, DJO had me going today which I don't usually do. I'll go back to just monitoring post mode now.....
Why? So far the discussions have been been civil.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 13, 2024, 03:12:31 PM
Wow, having the opinion that the last two years were "not good" must have missed the previous decade.
Yep this. UCONN succeeded so it looks like grabbing an elite player like Cam Spencer is a no-brainer but give Hurley his due - Nova got a number of what appeared to be elite players and did not have a successful season. UCONN isn't great because they used the portal - its just a great program and coach period.
My take: Shaka's system looks sustainable in terms of Marquette will consistently have 10-11 high major players on the roster every year. The bounce of the ball, other things that can happen will mean not every year is a deep tourney run but I think its a safe bet this system will literally have them competing for a top 4 seed every year, top 2 as often as not possibly. Even with misses they should generally have at least 9 high major, experienced players ready for action and thats enough for Shaka and staff to win.
Its sustainable because he is avoiding using bags to get players INTO the program - and that dynamic shouldn't change. Great topic btw.
Quote from: Big Papi on May 13, 2024, 03:00:26 PM
I do not but that is not what I am asking Shaka to do. I think the UConn method works just fine where you bring in 1-2 targeted portal players that will elevate your team and keep it at a high level.
It's hard to criticize Hurley right now, he's pulled every string perfectly the past two years, but after next year the Joey Calcaterra/Cam Spencer types won't exist. It's UConn, so maybe Hurley will just get someone else, but even for them the pool will be smaller.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 02:07:11 PM
I'll stick with my opinion on Gold. He'll be in foul trouble within the first eight minutes. But, that's a subject for a different thread.
Bringing in a player to take Omax's spot, maybe would have Joplin to continue to coming off the bench and being a great contributor as a sixth man again. Again, it's a culture, culture thing and to worry about hurting a player's feelings as opposed to what is best for the team is Shaka's decision then. He is the coach and again I'll stay with my opinion on the non portal replacement.
If Shaka went and got a one year rental to replace OMax, and not allow Jop the opportunity to start as the returning 6th MOY, then a year later.....that transfer would most likely be gone and so would Jop. At that point, Shaka would be looking to the portal once again. He doesn't want to play that game. And I for one applaud it.
Shaka puts a lot of time and energy into HS recruits. Where I think he could improve is looking for players who he didnt get the first time around, but become available after a year.
For example, if a Kon type player goes to his first choice and it doesn't work out after a year.....based on the relationships.....Shaka could look at those type of players.
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 03:08:54 PM
Opinions are just that, opinions. The facts are clear, but will Shaka change his philosophy next year with some really major holes to fill.
If that is a question, the answer is no.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 13, 2024, 03:32:16 PM
It's hard to criticize Hurley right now, he's pulled every string perfectly the past two years, but after next year the Joey Calcaterra/Cam Spencer types won't exist. It's UConn, so maybe Hurley will just get someone else, but even for them the pool will be smaller.
LOL. He's won two straight National Championships and 12 straight NCAA tournament games, all by double digits. So yeah, it's kinda hard to criticize Hurley right now. His teams play as hard and as unselfishly as anyone's. He's not overly relying on the portal but he's not ignoring either. So far he's been the gold standard.
Right. But there are multiple ways to build teams, and coaches should use the method that they feel is best for them to find success. Shaka's been very successful at Marquette. Why don't we trust the guy instead of comparing him to someone else?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 13, 2024, 01:45:54 PM
Finally, Shaka isn't dumb. He's selling something at the moment and sees a market imbalance. This is fluid. While I appreciate what he's selling, he's no dummy and will certainly utilize the portal when need be. He's simply not doing it at the cost of one of his guys losing minutes or his spot on the depth chart. Willing to bet a large chunk of the coaches across the country wish they were doing the same.
Things change fast. At this moment, embrace his philosophy but don't get too attached because it's liable to change
This is where I am, too.
So far, the Shaka system has worked pretty darn well. We're still very early in the portal/NIL era. It's a fun Scoopy joke, but it really IS too early to come to any kind of conclusion yet.
Right now, knowing what we know and not being able to predict the future, it comes down to this: Do we trust Shaka or not when it comes to building a roster and a program? At this point, he's given me only reasons to say, yes, I trust him.
Quote from: MUfan12 on May 13, 2024, 03:17:42 PM
UConn can use the "UConn method" because they have elite resources and won two titles. They can basically select.
It's a lot different animal for MU. Especially when starting minutes aren't close to guaranteed.
There is not a good excuse why MU cannot keep with UCONN. What "elite resources does UCONN have that MU does not?
Quote from: willie warrior on May 13, 2024, 06:37:46 PM
There is not a good excuse why MU cannot keep with UCONN. What "elite resources does UCONN have that MU does not?
UConn spends $8M more/year on mens basketball, has higher NIL potential, and has won 6 titles in 25 years.
Besides that we're right there with them.
Quote from: MUfan12 on May 13, 2024, 06:52:16 PM
UConn spends $8M more/year on mens basketball, has higher NIL potential, and has won 6 titles in 25 years.
Besides that we're right there with them.
Resources are one thing, but Hurley has really made smart choices as well. He's somewhat a hybrid of Shaka and what everyone else is doing. Yes, they had key transfers last year (Newton, Calcaterra) but it was Sanogo, Jackson, and Hawkins, all players recruited out of high school that grew in the system, and (per 247) all were outside the top-50, so not the 5-star kids. This past year, it was much the same. They had the one instant impact transfer in Spencer, but Clingan and Karaban were again sub-50 guys who they developed, and even the rest of their core (Diarra, Newton) were in the system multiple years. Castle was a game-changer, but by and large their model is to build with players who grow in the system for 2-3 years, then sprinkling in 1-2 guys that fill holes.
The real questions going forward for them are if guys like Ball, Johnson, and Stewart can take that step up while Mahaney and Reed are the instant impact fill-ins. On paper, this looks like their worst roster of the past three years, but considering the magic dust Hurley has had, it's hard not to just pencil them into the top-5 until proven otherwise.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on May 13, 2024, 04:30:05 PM
Right. But there are multiple ways to build teams, and coaches should use the method that they feel is best for them to find success. Shaka's been very successful at Marquette. Why don't we trust the guy instead of comparing him to someone else?
Hey, I love Shaka and have been one of his biggest supporters from the jump. He's done an outstanding job. But he's in a competitive business, so comparisons to other successful coaches is inevitable. Especially when one in his own conference separates himself from the pack the way Hurley has.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 13, 2024, 08:16:12 PM
Hey, I love Shaka and have been one of his biggest supporters from the jump. He's done an outstanding job. But he's in a competitive business, so comparisons to other successful coaches is inevitable. Especially when one in his own conference separates himself from the pack the way Hurley has.
No I know. I just am saying that what works for one may not work for another.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 13, 2024, 01:45:54 PM
Roster continuity in college hoops is a great thing. Stacking and sustaining success is a lot easier when you can allow players to get older on your roster. Based on our small sample size, it appears this staff can identify and maximize talent. OMax got drafted and it appears TKO and Oso are about to get drafted. Those players also won a lot of games.
The portal is one-and-done on steroids. There will be successes where rosters are built this way. I wouldn't go that way, however. Filling 3-4 spots yearly due to lost talent is yeoman's work. Rebuilding chemistry and finding the right fits on the fly isn't easy. I'd rather fill 1-2 spots this way based on early departures or a recruiting miss.
A couple of things will happen. Eventually, the portal will be regulated and compensation for players will be tied into scholarships/contracts at specific schools. The Covid extra year is ending as well. Rosters and filling them will be different because of it.
Finally, Shaka isn't dumb. He's selling something at the moment and sees a market imbalance. This is fluid. While I appreciate what he's selling, he's no dummy and will certainly utilize the portal when need be. He's simply not doing it at the cost of one of his guys losing minutes or his spot on the depth chart. Willing to bet a large chunk of the coaches across the country wish they were doing the same.
Things change fast. At this moment, embrace his philosophy but don't get too attached because it's liable to change
Well said.
Quote from: MUfan12 on May 13, 2024, 06:52:16 PM
UConn spends $8M more/year on mens basketball, has higher NIL potential, and has won 6 titles in 25 years.
Besides that we're right there with them.
Then MU needs to step up their game. If 8 million more is accurate and more on NIL is MU is not doing enough.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 14, 2024, 09:21:23 AM
Then MU needs to step up their game. If 8 million more is accurate and more on NIL is MU is not doing enough.
Then open your checkbook Captain Dung
Quote from: willie warrior on May 14, 2024, 09:21:23 AM
Then MU needs to step up their game. If 8 million more is accurate and more on NIL is MU is not doing enough.
Your words are like a gentle snow falling on a quiet mountaintop, followed by a tongue bath from a syphilitic hooker, Dung Willie
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on May 14, 2024, 09:34:15 AM
Your words are like a gentle snow falling on a quiet mountaintop, followed by a tongue bath from a syphilitic hooker, Dung Willie
THAT is quite the visual. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 14, 2024, 09:33:22 AM
Then open your checkbook Captain Dung
Mazos Burgers should host a fundraiser
Quote from: nyg on May 13, 2024, 02:42:50 PM
Thats why next year should be very interesting. There are so, so many questions and as you said it will be a high wire act, betting on the development of every player not named Kam, Joplin and Mitchell.
Yep. Same as two years ago. Betting on Kam, Stevie, Kolek, Oso and Jop to develop. It will be interesting. If it works Shaka will really be on a roll. Proof of concept part two on the way!
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on May 14, 2024, 09:34:15 AM
Your words are like a gentle snow falling on a quiet mountaintop, followed by a tongue bath from a syphilitic hooker, Dung Willie
It is great that you know all about a sophomoric hopker
Quote from: williewarrior on May 14, 2024, 07:06:52 PM
It is great that you know all about a sophomoric hopker
5 🫏 out of 5
Lpnely fplks like jpyless willie lpve hopkers.
Shaka's interview today was one more piece of the puzzle. He doesn't want to prioritize an outsider over an existing player. He is quite proud of staying out of the portal.
Quote from: williewarrior on May 14, 2024, 07:06:52 PM
It is great that you know all about a sophomoric hopker
Like Al always said, the best thing about freshman hopkers is that they become sophomoric hopkers.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on May 14, 2024, 08:35:52 PM
Like Al always said, the best thing about freshman hopkers is that they become sophomoric hopkers.
Pitino really went all out at Louisville by providing hopkers for players and recruits.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on May 14, 2024, 08:35:52 PM
Like Al always said, the best thing about freshman hopkers is that they become sophomoric hopkers.
Winner
Went into a YouTube wormhole last night and watched the last 10 minutes of the BE semi final against UConn. A majority of those 10 minutes were played by O-Max, Kam, Stevie, Chase and Ben. 4 of those players are still playing two years later and beat the eventual national champions that night. It's crazy that this is happening either every thing else going on in CBB.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 14, 2024, 09:21:23 AM
Then MU needs to step up their game. If 8 million more is accurate and more on NIL is MU is not doing enough.
Not sure how accurate that is. Last year the program went to Italy and Hawaii, know they have a great training table and get all the shoes and clothes they want, fly charter, plus some NIL money, they can compete
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 13, 2024, 04:22:26 PM
LOL. He's won two straight National Championships and 12 straight NCAA tournament games, all by double digits. So yeah, it's kinda hard to criticize Hurley right now. His teams play as hard and as unselfishly as anyone's. He's not overly relying on the portal but he's not ignoring either. So far he's been the gold standard.
Also, consider that plenty of teams follow the same plan that UConn has, and they obviously do not have the same sort of success.
Bobby is successful not only because of the portal. He's successful because of the totality of what he has built at UConn.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on May 15, 2024, 03:50:16 PM
Also, consider that plenty of teams follow the same plan that UConn has, and they obviously do not have the same sort of success.
Bobby is successful not only because of the portal. He's successful because of the totality of what he has built at UConn.
Impressive that Bobby Hurley was able to build UConn into a champion while coaching Arizona State.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on May 15, 2024, 04:11:12 PM
Impressive that Bobby Hurley was able to build UConn into a champion while coaching Arizona State.
Resources and experience.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on May 15, 2024, 04:11:12 PM
Impressive that Bobby Hurley was able to build UConn into a champion while coaching Arizona State.
Doing a Doug Gotlieb.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on May 15, 2024, 03:50:16 PM
Also, consider that plenty of teams follow the same plan that UConn has, and they obviously do not have the same sort of success.
Bobby is successful not only because of the portal. He's successful because of the totality of what he has built at UConn.
No $hit, Sherlock.
And it's Danny.
IMO, we will not know how the full effect of NIL until the covid guys are done and any potential NIL rules being established. I 100% that Shaka's model, under current conditions, can have MU a year in and year out top 25 team and top 10 every few years. As my post the day after NC State, it really comes down to what Shaka and MU wants from the program and how they navigate the waters.
I think it would be very hard to be a top 10 program more years than not without using the portal to some degree. That said, I believe that this freshmen class is the first true incoming class that fits the Shaka playing style. I think last year Shaka had his hands tied to some degree because there was limited playing time available this past season. The incoming class looks to be his best on paper and has bigs that Shaka is very good developing or showcasing.
While I am a NIL fan, it is very hard to question Shaka'a plan to date. I think his system may look extremely smart post covid year and if rules are put on NIL, which I think will happen. If that happens, he will be 4-5 years into building a system and ahead of everyone that may need to adjust their NIL addiction.
Quote from: Goose on May 16, 2024, 10:26:55 AM
IMO, we will not know how the full effect of NIL until the covid guys are done and any potential NIL rules being established. I 100% that Shaka's model, under current conditions, can have MU a year in and year out top 25 team and top 10 every few years. As my post the day after NC State, it really comes down to what Shaka and MU wants from the program and how they navigate the waters.
I think it would be very hard to be a top 10 program more years than not without using the portal to some degree. That said, I believe that this freshmen class is the first true incoming class that fits the Shaka playing style. I think last year Shaka had his hands tied to some degree because there was limited playing time available this past season. The incoming class looks to be his best on paper and has bigs that Shaka is very good developing or showcasing.
While I am a NIL fan, it is very hard to question Shaka'a plan to date. I think his system may look extremely smart post covid year and if rules are put on NIL, which I think will happen. If that happens, he will be 4-5 years into building a system and ahead of everyone that may need to adjust their NIL addiction.
Spot on, Goose.
MU can play the game as good as anybody, maybe not the 2M for one player, but money for all 13 players. Kam stayed, why, because he loves MU, yes, but he loves being paid well. Kolek and Oso did well, if you play well, the underclassmen will get there share. The 3 freshman got a nice bump. Did Shaka make a mistake, not signing a portal player, I say yes. Remember, a quality sub might have put Jop on the bench, watching the NCSt game, Jop belonged on the bench.
This again? Did you watch the Colorado game?
Quote from: MU82 on July 18, 2024, 09:23:29 PM
This again? Did you watch the Colorado game?
Jop is an average player, has good games and some pretty bad ones. Hope the upcoming year he is more consistent. If MU wants to be really good this year, he needs to improve.
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 18, 2024, 08:56:40 PM
MU can play the game as good as anybody, maybe not the 2M for one player, but money for all 13 players. Kam stayed, why, because he loves MU, yes, but he loves being paid well. Kolek and Oso did well, if you play well, the underclassmen will get there share. The 3 freshman got a nice bump. Did Shaka make a mistake, not signing a portal player, I say yes. Remember, a quality sub might have put Jop on the bench, watching the NCSt game, Jop belonged on the bench.
We can't begin to understand what Shaka using the portal would look like. If he did, who would leave, who wouldn't come, etc... I believe Shaka's approach has been wildly successful, and I beleieve that he knows more about the pros and cons of using the portal than you do.
That said, and I know I'm likely in the minority, I have immensely enjoyed watching players come to MU and grow over many years. The success they have had makes watching every game meaningful and fun. Watching kids like Jop come in and transform their work ethic, bodies and games it something portal schools don't get to see. Nor do they get to see the personalities of the kids and the academic success MU players have. I hope Shaka keeps doing what he's doing, and eventually one of these teams will break through for a deep run in March. Until then I'm more than happy watching Big East champ caliber teams, with great kids who developed at MU, compete at an extremely high level.
Agreed
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 18, 2024, 10:18:36 PM
Jop is an average player, has good games and some pretty bad ones.
That describes most major-conference starters, including those on quite a few (if not most) Final Four teams.
We don't beat Colorado - don't even get to play NC State - without Jop. And yes, then he was really bad against NC State, as were most of his teammates.
Colorado had two first-round draft picks and a second-rounder and didn't even make the Sweet 16. They could have used Jop in that game.
It's easy to look at what Hurley has done at UConn and think Shaka should be doing the same thing at MU. But, the two situations are different, the two men are different, etc. Other coaches are doing the same thing Hurley is doing and not having nearly as much success. Truth is, Hurley is a hell of a coach. I have no problem with Shaka's approach. Fact is, I think it fun to watch freshmen come in and see how they develop over time. For instance, Tyler was just so-so his soph year, but he sure did improve over his last two years. Sean Jones was showing real progress before he got hurt last year. Ben Gold improved a lot on defense last year. This progress of players is very interesting and fun to see. I think Shaka probably knows what he's doing.
Wouldn't mind an aircraft carrier from the portal
Clark and Hamilton are in the fold. Be patient and let them develop.
It will be interesting to see how much Norman, Lowery and Amadou improve this year.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 19, 2024, 06:13:26 AM
We can't begin to understand what Shaka using the portal would look like. If he did, who would leave, who wouldn't come, etc... I believe Shaka's approach has been wildly successful, and I beleieve that he knows more about the pros and cons of using the portal than you do.
That said, and I know I'm likely in the minority, I have immensely enjoyed watching players come to MU and grow over many years. The success they have had makes watching every game meaningful and fun. Watching kids like Jop come in and transform their work ethic, bodies and games it something portal schools don't get to see. Nor do they get to see the personalities of the kids and the academic success MU players have. I hope Shaka keeps doing what he's doing, and eventually one of these teams will break through for a deep run in March. Until then I'm more than happy watching Big East champ caliber teams, with great kids who developed at MU, compete at an extremely high level.
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: bilsu on July 19, 2024, 09:20:50 AM
It will be interesting to see how much Norman, Lowery and Amadou improve this year.
It will be interesting to see your reaction regardless of how much or little each improves.
Quote from: rgoode57 on July 19, 2024, 08:29:00 AM
It's easy to look at what Hurley has done at UConn and think Shaka should be doing the same thing at MU. But, the two situations are different, the two men are different, etc. Other coaches are doing the same thing Hurley is doing and not having nearly as much success. Truth is, Hurley is a hell of a coach. I have no problem with Shaka's approach. Fact is, I think it fun to watch freshmen come in and see how they develop over time. For instance, Tyler was just so-so his soph year, but he sure did improve over his last two years. Sean Jones was showing real progress before he got hurt last year. Ben Gold improved a lot on defense last year. This progress of players is very interesting and fun to see. I think Shaka probably knows what he's doing.
It's also nice to see our guys and their dedication to our university. They're not bouncing around like mercenaries, they're making a commitment to MU as a program and institution, developing pride and playing for the name on the front of the jersey.
Thinking back to my time at MU, 94-98, we had four guys transfer out (Littles, McCall, Mason, and Minor); three of whom were shown the door for non-hoops reasons. We had just two transfers in that I can remember (West and Barone). Maybe I'm living in the past but I love the roster stability and seeing guys develop.
Quote from: rgoode57 on July 19, 2024, 08:29:00 AM
It's easy to look at what Hurley has done at UConn and think Shaka should be doing the same thing at MU. But, the two situations are different, the two men are different, etc. Other coaches are doing the same thing Hurley is doing and not having nearly as much success. Truth is, Hurley is a hell of a coach. I have no problem with Shaka's approach. Fact is, I think it fun to watch freshmen come in and see how they develop over time. For instance, Tyler was just so-so his soph year, but he sure did improve over his last two years. Sean Jones was showing real progress before he got hurt last year. Ben Gold improved a lot on defense last year. This progress of players is very interesting and fun to see. I think Shaka probably knows what he's doing.
I don't know of any coach that is having the success that coach Hurly is having.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 19, 2024, 06:13:26 AM
I have immensely enjoyed watching players come to MU and grow over many years. The success they have had makes watching every game meaningful and fun. Watching kids like Jop come in and transform their work ethic, bodies and games it something portal schools don't get to see. Nor do they get to see the personalities of the kids and the academic success MU players have. I hope Shaka keeps doing what he's doing, and eventually one of these teams will break through for a deep run in March. Until then I'm more than happy watching Big East champ caliber teams, with great kids who developed at MU, compete at an extremely high level.
100% agree. It's great to watch kids develop. Of course, in college, you've only got them for a few years and there is naturally more turnover. But in the same vein,
I've got to say that I enjoy pro sports much less than in previous years, largely because in the "old days" some players would spend their entire careers with the same team. You really got to know the players well over a lengthy period of time. Now, with chasing the money and switching teams willy-nilly, a fan doesn't get that same feeling of continuity. I guess some folks like that, but my interest has declined significantly.
Quote from: MU82 on July 19, 2024, 11:14:23 AM
It will be interesting to see your reaction regardless of how much or little each improves.
I wouldn't call it "interesting"
Quote from: avid1010 on July 19, 2024, 06:13:26 AM
We can't begin to understand what Shaka using the portal would look like. If he did, who would leave, who wouldn't come, etc... I believe Shaka's approach has been wildly successful, and I beleieve that he knows more about the pros and cons of using the portal than you do.
That said, and I know I'm likely in the minority, I have immensely enjoyed watching players come to MU and grow over many years. The success they have had makes watching every game meaningful and fun. Watching kids like Jop come in and transform their work ethic, bodies and games it something portal schools don't get to see. Nor do they get to see the personalities of the kids and the academic success MU players have. I hope Shaka keeps doing what he's doing, and eventually one of these teams will break through for a deep run in March. Until then I'm more than happy watching Big East champ caliber teams, with great kids who developed at MU, compete at an extremely high level.
I'm not so sure you're in the minority
One of the contributing factors to the success of Shaka's internally building talent system is that the staff has not made many talent selection errors .
So far Shaka has had 4 classes , year 0 1, 2 and 3 in those 4 classes only 3 players have left . One of was identified as a clear project who didn't work out at the high major level (Keeyan), EE had an injury that degraded his ability to compete as did Wrightsil.
So now MU has balanced classes with legitimate Big East level talent. If MU can keep stocking a talent pool of 4 stars ,and coach them up ,the program will continue to be upper half of league . Every once in a while pick up a 5 star or have some superior internal development players who out perform such that they are the best player on thr floor (TyKo, Kam etc), MU can be in The National Conversation.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 20, 2024, 04:03:47 PM
One of the contributing factors to the success of Shaka's internally building talent system is that the staff has not made many talent selection errors .
So far Shaka has had 4 classes , year 0 1, 2 and 3 in those 4 classes only 3 players have left . One of was identified as a clear project who didn't work out at the high major level (Keeyan), EE had an injury that degraded his ability to compete as did Wrightsil.
So now MU has balanced classes with legitimate Big East level talent. If MU can keep stocking a talent pool of 4 stars ,and coach them up ,the program will continue to be upper half of league . Every once in a while pick up a 5 star or have some superior internal development players who out perform such that they are the best player on thr floor (TyKo, Kam etc), MU can be in The National Conversation.
I would say more likely that we see superior talent emerge from a developing player on the team.......as opposed to picking up a 5 star commitment.
Marquette is in the national conversation.
Stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog.
Stop thinking MU needs to be afraid.
Stop thinking that MU is being disrespected.
Stop thinking MU needs the portal to compete.
A big East championship and tourney championship.
Back to back 2 seeds.
Multiple players drafted by the NBA.
56-17 the last two seasons.
Getting old and staying old
Clear succession plans at every position.
No transfers in, no transfers out.
Seriously, this is what other programs dream of. Enjoy it.
Quote from: tower912 on July 21, 2024, 07:09:38 PM
Marquette is in the national conversation.
Stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog.
Stop thinking MU needs to be afraid.
Stop thinking that MU is being disrespected.
Stop thinking MU needs the portal to compete.
A big East championship and tourney championship.
Back to back 2 seeds.
Multiple players drafted by the NBA.
56-17 the last two seasons.
Getting old and staying old
Clear succession plans at every position.
No transfers in, no transfers out.
Seriously, this is what other programs dream of. Enjoy it.
Yeah it's dope. I don't think I've ever been checking scoop as often in the summer as I have the last 2 years. Used to think my favorite team was a tie between Mu and the Vikings, but I ain't really checked on the vikes this summer and we just drafted a new QB.
Quote from: Pepe Sylvia on July 22, 2024, 10:07:52 AM
Yeah it's dope. I don't think I've ever been checking scoop as often in the summer as I have the last 2 years. Used to think my favorite team was a tie between Mu and the Vikings, but I ain't really checked on the vikes this summer and we just drafted a new QB.
Our FB team's headlines have not been great the past couple of weeks tbh. #Skol
Quote from: muwarrior69 on July 19, 2024, 01:37:04 PM
I don't know of any coach that is having the success that coach Hurly is having.
Hurley also has an assistant coach that is tasked with portal, team configuration (coming and goings). Almost a general manager but below Hurley. AKA. He does not have the time to micro-manage this so he off-loads and then after the options are given to him. Makes the final call......
Quote from: burger on July 22, 2024, 02:46:16 PM
Hurley also has an assistant coach that is tasked with portal, team configuration (coming and goings). Almost a general manager but below Hurley. AKA. He does not have the time to micro-manage this so he off-loads and then after the options are given to him. Makes the final call......
I'm sure all of these functions are covered on the Marquette coaching staff.
Quote from: burger on July 22, 2024, 02:46:16 PM
Hurley also has an assistant coach that is tasked with portal, team configuration (coming and goings). Almost a general manager but below Hurley. AKA. He does not have the time to micro-manage this so he off-loads and then after the options are given to him. Makes the final call......
That is how he can get by on less money.
Quote from: tower912 on July 21, 2024, 07:09:38 PM
Marquette is in the national conversation.
Stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog.
Stop thinking MU needs to be afraid.
Stop thinking that MU is being disrespected.
Stop thinking MU needs the portal to compete.
A big East championship and tourney championship.
Back to back 2 seeds.
Multiple players drafted by the NBA.
56-17 the last two seasons.
Getting old and staying old
Clear succession plans at every position.
No transfers in, no transfers out.
Seriously, this is what other programs dream of. Enjoy it.
...sounds like an order. Enjoy it, damn it.! Rather, are you rationalizing? Which we all do. To say stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog seems to imply you've felt MU has been a lucky underdog. Not attempting to be snarky, but 56-17...So what? No transfers out. Maybe not necessarily a good thing. 2-seeds? Great!! I definitely applaud that success. The spotlight on the program has been fantastic. But...MU didn't do much with those back2back high seedings. National championship or bust, every year, my friend. It's been 47 yrs, but shouldn't expectations be nothing less? I work in sales so my analogy is that of coming close to annual sales goals, or blowing the doors off those annual sales goals. Clear succession plan at every position? Ok, sure...if players are good. Otherwise, maybe not a good thing. Other programs emulating MU?...DePaul and Gtown come to mind...so, yes, I'll agree with that.
Edit: removed politics
The goal of the program every year should be a national championship.
My goals for them aren't that high. The last thing I need is constant disappointment from my sports fandom.
is this thread about player development, or Viper's suboptimal sales skills?
Quote from: Viper on July 23, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
...sounds like an order. Enjoy it, damn it.! Rather, are you rationalizing? Which we all do. To say stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog seems to imply you've felt MU has been a lucky underdog. Not attempting to be snarky, but 56-17...So what? No transfers out. Maybe not necessarily a good thing. 2-seeds? Great!! I definitely applaud that success. The spotlight on the program has been fantastic. But...MU didn't do much with those back2back high seedings. National championship or bust, every year, my friend. It's been 47 yrs, but shouldn't expectations be nothing less? I work in sales so my analogy is that of coming close to annual sales goals, or blowing the doors off those annual sales goals.(not easy in Joe's economy, btw) Clear succession plan at every position? Ok, sure...if players are good. Otherwise, maybe not a good thing. Other programs emulating MU?...DePaul and Gtown come to mind...so, yes, I'll agree with that.
🙄
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on July 23, 2024, 10:22:05 AMThe goal of the program every year should be a national championship.
It should be, and that's my goal for them as well. However, that doesn't mean I can't embrace the successes or see anything less than that as a failure. Double Big East titles was awesome, getting back to the Sweet 16 was awesome, and while the NC is the goal, I can still recognize the steps along the way as awesome.
Viper, you keep doing you. I will keep being me.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 23, 2024, 12:26:55 PM
It should be, and that's my goal for them as well. However, that doesn't mean I can't embrace the successes or see anything less than that as a failure. Double Big East titles was awesome, getting back to the Sweet 16 was awesome, and while the NC is the goal, I can still recognize the steps along the way as awesome.
Yep, those things are true accomplishments. Need to savor those. Building blocks toward a NC.
Quote from: Viper on July 23, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
...sounds like an order. Enjoy it, damn it.! Rather, are you rationalizing? Which we all do. To say stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog seems to imply you've felt MU has been a lucky underdog. Not attempting to be snarky, but 56-17...So what? No transfers out. Maybe not necessarily a good thing. 2-seeds? Great!! I definitely applaud that success. The spotlight on the program has been fantastic. But...MU didn't do much with those back2back high seedings. National championship or bust, every year, my friend. It's been 47 yrs, but shouldn't expectations be nothing less? I work in sales so my analogy is that of coming close to annual sales goals, or blowing the doors off those annual sales goals. Clear succession plan at every position? Ok, sure...if players are good. Otherwise, maybe not a good thing. Other programs emulating MU?...DePaul and Gtown come to mind...so, yes, I'll agree with that.
Edit: removed politics
I don't get your analogy. It seems like it would be like blowing the doors off of your annual sales goal vs having the best sales of any person in any competing business.
Quote from: tower912 on July 23, 2024, 02:42:47 PM
Viper, you keep doing you. I will keep being me.
the point of it all, yes? Offer a point, an opinion. Maybe trapeze the high wire. Some agree. Some don't. Debate. Have fun with it. So yeah, you do you. All good.
Viper
I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.
IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.
Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 09:48:04 AM
Viper
I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.
IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.
Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.
We are mostly in agreement on all of this. I have very high expectations for the upcoming season.
Just one factual clarification: While Shaka's recruits will get all the frontcourt minutes, our best player by far, Kam Jones, is a Wojo recruit who probably will lead the team in minutes played. Another Wojo recruit, Stevie Mitchell, will get significant PT. I doubt that either Kam or Stevie would have developed anywhere near as well under Wojo as they have under Shaka, who deserves tons and tons of credit obviously.
The season's success will be based largely on whether guys like Gold, Ross, Lowery and Norman can show the kind of improvement that several players did the previous two years. Recruit Retain Develop means little without the "Develop." Those of us with high expectations are betting on Shaka, his assistants and the players themselves making that happen.
82
Clarification---after three years of playing under Shaka I think Stevie and Kam are Shaka guys. That said, the number of Shaka recruits makes up the majority of the team and that will be the big difference, imo. While I already miss TK and Oso, I am excited to see the new team and expect that we will see multiple guys stepping up big this season.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 10:19:29 AM
82
Clarification---after three years of playing under Shaka I think Stevie and Kam are Shaka guys. That said, the number of Shaka recruits makes up the majority of the team and that will be the big difference, imo. While I already miss TK and Oso, I am excited to see the new team and expect that we will see multiple guys stepping up big this season.
100% they are Shaka's guys. Include Oso with this as well. They could have opened up their recruitment or Shaka could have recruited over them but didn't.
Shooter
I agree. My point is more they are better prepared to play in what I believe Shaka 2.0 will look like than they were even a year ago. I have heard some outstanding things about how the defense looks and they have the athletes to play big time defense moving forward. I loved our offense the past two years, but very excited to see the defense next season.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 10:36:59 AM
I agree. My point is more they are better prepared to play in what I believe Shaka 2.0 will look like than they were even a year ago. I have heard some outstanding things about how the defense looks and they have the athletes to play big time defense moving forward. I loved our offense the past two years, but very excited to see the defense next season.
Need some current guys to make a leap with their outside shooting to make Shaka 2.0 effective after Kam and Jop depart. Miletic is a good start.
MU was #17 in defense last year and #21 offense according to kenpom. If we can be a top 10 defense this year, the sky is the limit. Being longer and athletic should help accomplish that goal.
Mufan12
I am expecting a lot of dunks this coming season.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 11:03:18 AM
I am expecting a lot of dunks this coming season.
If they can force turnovers and get out in transition, wonderful. That eases some of my concerns about the offense. But I worry they'll be extra susceptible to teams packing it in once they are in the halfcourt offense.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 10:36:59 AM
Shooter
I agree. My point is more they are better prepared to play in what I believe Shaka 2.0 will look like than they were even a year ago. I have heard some outstanding things about how the defense looks and they have the athletes to play big time defense moving forward. I loved our offense the past two years, but very excited to see the defense next season.
I do like the length and athleticism that is being recruited and am excited for the defensive ability and intensity to rachet up a couple notches because of it.
Your point is well taken.
Goose/Shooter - Reasonable points on "Shaka guys." He did a great job re-recruiting and developing them.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 09:48:04 AM
Viper
I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.
IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.
Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.
...thx Goose. And I agree with you both on expectations and on the portal or no portal. My attempted point before was, if guys coming in behind those departing (either due to eligibility or for the pro's) are not comparable in talent, was retention a positive? From a culture standpoint, probably yes. From a winning standpoint? probably no. Will go back to my sales analogy for Avid1010. Retain clients YOY...great. But, if some of those clients have become unprofitable, better to launch. Find new through old fashioned cold calls/RFP or cherry pick (portal). Hoping retention of the current roster is both a culture and on-court win.
Viper
I trust Shaka and believe once NIL rules get adjusted that the retention way is going to look very smart. That said, puts a great deal of pressure on the development side of things and I think that is risky business. It is going to be interesting to see how things shake out post TK/Oso. I think it was an easy sell to retain guys because he recruited down the food chain a bit and they knew TK and Oso were getting a ton of minutes. I think the retention style will be far more difficult next offseason than the previous 2-3 years.
With the scholarship change, I can see more guys buried at the end of the bench planning their departure and creating dissension.
I do not see Shaka in the portal until there are several unexpected departures at the same time.
Quote from: Viper on July 24, 2024, 02:41:43 PM
...thx Goose. And I agree with you both on expectations and on the portal or no portal. My attempted point before was, if guys coming in behind those departing (either due to eligibility or for the pro's) are not comparable in talent, was retention a positive? From a culture standpoint, probably yes. From a winning standpoint? probably no. Will go back to my sales analogy for Avid1010. Retain clients YOY...great. But, if some of those clients have become unprofitable, better to launch. Find new through old fashioned cold calls/RFP or cherry pick (portal). Hoping retention of the current roster is both a culture and on-court win.
You lose money on clients?
Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2024, 03:14:20 PM
With the scholarship change, I can see more guys buried at the end of the bench planning their departure and creating dissension.
I do not see Shaka in the portal until there are several unexpected departures at the same time.
There are multiple ways to utilize the Roster change. The most important change is that all sports become equivalency sports , which now means partial scholarships can be granted in basketball.
In theory there can be guys with full scholarships and a some
partial scholarship scout team players. So potentially some decent quality practice players can be recruited . Guys who are maybe low D 1 quality who want to experience life in a major conference. For example , 12 full scholarship and 6 decent practice guys on 50 percent equals the 15 total scholarships.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 24, 2024, 05:35:07 PM
There are multiple ways to utilize the Roster change. The most important change is that all sports become equivalency sports , which now means partial scholarships can be granted in basketball.
In theory there can be guys with full scholarships and a some
partial scholarship scout team players. So potentially some decent quality practice players can be recruited . Guys who are maybe low D 1 quality who want to experience life in a major conference. For example , 12 full scholarship and 6 decent practice guys on 50 percent equals the 15 total scholarships.
Thanks for summarizing what has already been discussed.
Quote from: Herman Cain on July 24, 2024, 05:35:07 PM
There are multiple ways to utilize the Roster change. The most important change is that all sports become equivalency sports , which now means partial scholarships can be granted in basketball.
In theory there can be guys with full scholarships and a some
partial scholarship scout team players. So potentially some decent quality practice players can be recruited . Guys who are maybe low D 1 quality who want to experience life in a major conference. For example , 12 full scholarship and 6 decent practice guys on 50 percent equals the 15 total scholarships.
https://www.burntorangenation.com/recruiting/2016/10/18/13319232/shaka-smart-texas-longhorns-matt-coleman-charles-obannon-jr-jarred-vanderbilt-jase-febres-royce-hamm
Quote from: avid1010 on July 24, 2024, 04:40:42 PM
You lose money on clients?
yes. (I lead production for a risk management firm)
Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2024, 03:14:20 PM
With the scholarship change, I can see more guys buried at the end of the bench planning their departure and creating dissension.
I do not see Shaka in the portal until there are several unexpected departures at the same time.
I wonder if all 15 are utilized? Maybe bank 2 for reasons you suggest.
Quote from: Goose on July 24, 2024, 09:48:04 AM
Viper
I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.
IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.
Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.
I'm curious...if in 3-5 years Shaka continues to have top 25 teams that never get past the Sweet 16 you'd look for a change?
Your expectation upon firing Wojo was that the next coach would produce greater success than Shaka has had in the tourney? I don't understand the "free pass" statement.
While I believe they have underperformed in the tourney in relation to their seed, I'm also not losing sight of what I expected a new coach to be able to accomplish, and it didn't include a S16, BEAST champ or BEAST tourney champ in the first 3 years.
In this day and age, I find it more difficult than ever to judge a coach. Tell me how much $ Shaka has to spend on players vs other top programs...
Quote from: Viper on July 24, 2024, 09:23:44 PM
yes. (I lead production for a risk management firm)
I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like some are holding Shaka to a standard near perfection. No one wants to win a championship more than Shaka...his actions show that.
I'm just thrilled he didn't take the Kentucky job. He's far exceeded my expectations of where I felt a good hire could have the program in 3 years, and while I hope for greater success, I don't believe there is a coach that would come to MU that will bring us more success than Shaka will.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 24, 2024, 09:51:18 PM
I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like some are holding Shaka to a standard near perfection.
I think most Scoopers think of themselves as the Shaka (or better) of their profession. I suspect most of them are more like the Hanks, Dukiets, Deanes, and/or Wojos of their profession.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 24, 2024, 09:46:20 PM
I'm curious...if in 3-5 years Shaka continues to have top 25 teams that never get past the Sweet 16 you'd look for a change?
Your expectation upon firing Wojo was that the next coach would produce greater success than Shaka has had in the tourney? I don't understand the "free pass" statement.
While I believe they have underperformed in the tourney in relation to their seed, I'm also not losing sight of what I expected a new coach to be able to accomplish, and it didn't include a S16, BEAST champ or BEAST tourney champ in the first 3 years.
In this day and age, I find it more difficult than ever to judge a coach. Tell me how much $ Shaka has to spend on players vs other top programs...
This is all well said. It feels like the criticisms are a bunch of monday morning quarterbacking. If you went back three years ago and laid out what Shaka would accomplish his first three years, everyone would have been thrilled.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on July 25, 2024, 07:46:49 AM
This is all well said. It feels like the criticisms are a bunch of monday morning quarterbacking. If you went back three years ago and laid out what Shaka would accomplish his first three years, everyone would have been thrilled.
100%
Every team but one will end their season dreaming of more, but 3 NCAA appearances, 3 tourney wins, a Sweet 16, a Big East regular season title, 2 BET finals appearances & one win, that's spectacular success from where we were in 2021.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 25, 2024, 08:16:46 AM
100%
Every team but one will end their season dreaming of more, but 3 NCAA appearances, 3 tourney wins, a Sweet 16, a Big East regular season title, 2 BET finals appearances & one win, that's spectacular success from where we were in 2021.
Yes, but 2021 is a low bar, and it should have little to do with measuring what's happened since.
I like to look at Shaka's accomplishments at Marquette as spectacular success compared to 9 of the other 10 Big East programs - and to most programs in the country, for that matter.
Just 2-3 years ago, the idea that Marquette or any other Big East program could be the Next Villanova was laughed at by many here. As if certain programs are preordained for success, and only they can be successful.
In just that time, Marquette has surpassed Villanova by every conceivable measure (although we obviously haven't surpassed what Nova was before Wright left).
Now it's UConn that is the standard. But from 2017-22, regardless of who was coaching them, UConn never competed for conference titles and won as many NCAAT games as Wojo did. Heck, just in 2022, Hurley's team lost as a 5-seed to New Mexico State in the first round in 2022, and his record as a major-college coach was nothing special.
I still see no reason that Marquette can't be the Big East's standardbearers one day under Shaka, and I'm not talking about 10 years from now.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2024, 09:14:53 AM
Yes, but 2021 is a low bar, and it should have little to do with measuring what's happened since.
I like to look at Shaka's accomplishments at Marquette as spectacular success compared to 9 of the other 10 Big East programs - and to most programs in the country, for that matter.
Just 2-3 years ago, the idea that Marquette or any other Big East program could be the Next Villanova was laughed at by many here. As if certain programs are preordained for success, and only they can be successful.
In just that time, Marquette has surpassed Villanova by every conceivable measure (although we obviously haven't surpassed what Nova was before Wright left).
Now it's UConn that is the standard. But from 2017-22, regardless of who was coaching them, UConn never competed for conference titles and won as many NCAAT games as Wojo did. Heck, just in 2022, Hurley's team lost as a 5-seed to New Mexico State in the first round in 2022, and his record as a major-college coach was nothing special.
I still see no reason that Marquette can't be the Big East's standardbearers one day under Shaka, and I'm not talking about 10 years from now.
How much does MU have to spend on players vs UCONN?
Quote from: avid1010 on July 24, 2024, 09:51:18 PM
I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like some are holding Shaka to a standard near perfection. No one wants to win a championship more than Shaka...his actions show that.
I'm just thrilled he didn't take the Kentucky job. He's far exceeded my expectations of where I felt a good hire could have the program in 3 years, and while I hope for greater success, I don't believe there is a coach that would come to MU that will bring us more success than Shaka will.
Great post avid. It seems like some scoopers are demanding a natty pretty damn soon.
Or what? Call for Shaka to be fired if he does not fulfill their expectations on their schedule? Shaka has clearly taken a patient, rather long term approach with player development and retention. I think we will win a natty with him as our coach. Meanwhile, I am going to enjoy
all of our games.
I cannot think of anything that Shaka could do that would diminish my respect and appreciation for what he has done for the program and the university. If in five years they have not advanced past a S16 I will be very disappointed, but still strongly in his camp. My biggest interest for the program is to see the excitement level remain high because MU benefits from that exposure.
IMO, I have seen more very good to great basketball over the past two years than any time since the 1970's and I expect we will see more in the upcoming years. Shaka created excitement around the program extremely quickly and I want that to remain. To do so, I firmly believe it needs more success in March. Again, I firmly believe the excitement continues this year and this team may end up being the biggest surprise of the Shaka tenure at MU.
Quote from: Goose on July 25, 2024, 10:36:29 AM
I cannot think of anything that Shaka could do that would diminish my respect and appreciation for what he has done for the program and the university. If in five years they have not advanced past a S16 I will be very disappointed, but still strongly in his camp. My biggest interest for the program is to see the excitement level remain high because MU benefits from that exposure.
IMO, I have seen more very good to great basketball over the past two years than any time since the 1970's and I expect we will see more in the upcoming years. Shaka created excitement around the program extremely quickly and I want that to remain. To do so, I firmly believe it needs more success in March. Again, I firmly believe the excitement continues this year and this team may end up being the biggest surprise of the Shaka tenure at MU.
...I agree. And the bonus on this upcoming season will be kicking RED's arse.
Quote from: Goose on July 25, 2024, 10:36:29 AM
I cannot think of anything that Shaka could do that would diminish my respect and appreciation for what he has done for the program and the university. If in five years they have not advanced past a S16 I will be very disappointed, but still strongly in his camp. My biggest interest for the program is to see the excitement level remain high because MU benefits from that exposure.
IMO, I have seen more very good to great basketball over the past two years than any time since the 1970's and I expect we will see more in the upcoming years. Shaka created excitement around the program extremely quickly and I want that to remain. To do so, I firmly believe it needs more success in March. Again, I firmly believe the excitement continues this year and this team may end up being the biggest surprise of the Shaka tenure at MU.
Goose, if you think I was referring to you. I assure you that you are mistaken. No question that we need to advance beyond the SS, but one scooper (who I will leave unnamed to avoid getting him wound up) seems to focus on Hurley, as if Shaka should be copying Hurley's playbook. Shaka can get a natty without being Hurley 2.0. When? Who knows.
Snoop
I did not think you referring to me. I wanted to clarify my remarks to some degree. We are lucky to have him as a coach.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 24, 2024, 09:51:18 PM
I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like some are holding Shaka to a standard near perfection. No one wants to win a championship more than Shaka...his actions show that.
I'm just thrilled he didn't take the Kentucky job. He's far exceeded my expectations of where I felt a good hire could have the program in 3 years, and while I hope for greater success, I don't believe there is a coach that would come to MU that will bring us more success than Shaka will.
While I agree that Shaka wants to win a natty (most coaches do), Hurley sure is distancing himself far from Shaka in that category. Pretty quickly Shaka needs to pick up the lost ground.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 25, 2024, 02:18:16 PM
While I agree that Shaka wants to win a natty (most coaches do), Hurley sure is distancing himself far from Shaka in that category. Pretty quickly Shaka needs to pick up the lost ground.
Or what? Maybe Hurley is just a better coach.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 25, 2024, 02:18:16 PM
While I agree that Shaka wants to win a natty (most coaches do), Hurley sure is distancing himself far from Shaka in that category. Pretty quickly Shaka needs to pick up the lost ground.
You think most coaches want to win a national title? I don't. College coaches are hired to help shepherd young men and women towards their college degrees and develop the leaders of tomorrow.
There are a small group of coaches that truly believe their program is capable to win a NC. There are many coaches hoping to catch a hot streak in March/April but those guys are hoping to get hot. I think two years ago Shaka started to believe in late January that they could win it all if they were hot at the right time. Last season he probably believed they were good enough to make a serious run at it.
I rarely post something but I do think I have something to add here. I continue to be impressed by the intellect and passion for college basketball and MU basketball by the big guns who post their views here. My angle is this: I look at college basketball a lot like surgery. You go into a case with the best CT report and ultrasound read by a great radiologist and once you open the abdomen you get handed a rare 1/10000 cancer, buddy. Now what are you gonna do? Get pissed and complain? Yell at the nurses like those TV doctors do? No. Do your best for the patient and be an instrument of peace and smile and add that to your list of what you know. Think about this. All the best fascinating analytics had MU winning its last game. Dammit MU could not buy a three pointer. Is that Shaka's fault? Did he not prepare his team? Hell no. We all know that good coaching makes a difference in the chances for success, but that is the joy of watching college basketball! It's a controlled randomness. From a former Biology major, is that not life? I do really agree with the last post before this one. A good coach will know to coach life lessons from the game because non NBA players can still change the world for good from an MU experience.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 25, 2024, 02:18:16 PM
While I agree that Shaka wants to win a natty (most coaches do), Hurley sure is distancing himself far from Shaka in that category. Pretty quickly Shaka needs to pick up the lost ground.
Or what?
Quote from: sodakmu87 on July 25, 2024, 06:31:50 PM
I rarely post something but I do think I have something to add here. I continue to be impressed by the intellect and passion for college basketball and MU basketball by the big guns who post their views here. My angle is this: I look at college basketball a lot like surgery. You go into a case with the best CT report and ultrasound read by a great radiologist and once you open the abdomen you get handed a rare 1/10000 cancer, buddy. Now what are you gonna do? Get pissed and complain? Yell at the nurses like those TV doctors do? No. Do your best for the patient and be an instrument of peace and smile and add that to your list of what you know. Think about this. All the best fascinating analytics had MU winning its last game. Dammit MU could not buy a three pointer. Is that Shaka's fault? Did he not prepare his team? Hell no. We all know that good coaching makes a difference in the chances for success, but that is the joy of watching college basketball! It's a controlled randomness. From a former Biology major, is that not life? I do really agree with the last post before this one. A good coach will know to coach life lessons from the game because non NBA players can still change the world for good from an MU experience.
Love this post along with the analogy to unwelcome surprises in surgery. A surgeon who I know personally once told me that what marked a really good surgeon was when all Hell breaks loose in the middle of surgery (heart attack, stroke, massive hemorrhaging, or the unexpected cancer you mentioned, etc.), does the surgeon know
what to do and in what order?
Quote from: willie warrior on July 25, 2024, 02:18:16 PM
While I agree that Shaka wants to win a natty (most coaches do), Hurley sure is distancing himself far from Shaka in that category. Pretty quickly Shaka needs to pick up the lost ground.
Like a gangrenous rooster, your words peck unceasingly as our brains, Dung Willie
Quote from: avid1010 on July 25, 2024, 09:54:50 AM
How much does MU have to spend on players vs UCONN?
I don't know, do you?
But if I had to give an answer based on what I've read on Scoop and elsewhere, it would be: MU has enough to compete at a very high level.
Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2024, 11:35:28 AM
I don't know, do you?
But if I had to give an answer based on what I've read on Scoop and elsewhere, it would be: MU has enough to compete at a very high level.
Read the Athletic article on NIL budgets. very interesting.
Quote from: 79Warrior on July 26, 2024, 12:34:25 PM
Read the Athletic article on NIL budgets. very interesting.
Do you have a link for said article please?
Like Brother Goose, I'm all-in on Coach Shaka. He's given us almost everything we could expect and done it with class and the type of support for our players that few universities offer. His biggest criticism is he's come on the crap side of a crap shoot, the NCAA tournament.
But before you criticize, just ask yourself, "if someone had told me when we fired coach Wojo, we'd be in the NCAA every year, made it to the Sweet 16 and Big East Champion," you'd have fallen over. Nobody would have believed it and yet, that's where we are.
All that said, my biggest concern about the program is whether the four-year approach we use can win an NCAA Championship. We do a great job developing and playing three- and four-star players and getting to the threshold. But, will it take a five-star, one-and-done or two-and-done players to reach the pinnacle of the NCAA? I honestly don't know, given the changes in college basketball.
Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that no one I can recall won an NCAA in their first few years with a program. It takes time to build a reputation and attract the very best. I suspect that if Coach Shaka thought he was close and a transferee would put us over the top, he'd be there. But we haven't reach that point, I suspect, yet!
Not sold that Shaka can get MU to the Final 4 much less being National Championship. He had 3 NBA players last 2 years plus a good supporting staff of players. This year they will be good with Kam running the show, future 2 to 3 years from now will be very good.
Clark or Hamilton center
Parham
Owens Militic
Hopefully Stevens Lowery
James. Norman
Not bad going forward
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 02:06:45 PM
Not sold that Shaka can get MU to the Final 4 much less being National Championship. He had 3 NBA players last 2 years plus a good supporting staff of players. This year they will be good with Kam running the show, future 2 to 3 years from now will be very good.
Clark or Hamilton center
Parham
Owens Militic
Hopefully Stevens Lowery
James. Norman
Not bad going forward
Winning the Natty is just about getting hot in a tournament. Plenty of great coaches dip out early every year.
I'm not saying it's a total crap shoot, but winning it all shouldn't be the decider of whether or not Shaka sticks around.
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 02:06:45 PM
Not sold that Shaka can get MU to the Final 4 much less being National Championship. He had 3 NBA players last 2 years plus a good supporting staff of players. This year they will be good with Kam running the show, future 2 to 3 years from now will be very good.
Clark or Hamilton center
Parham
Owens Militic
Hopefully Stevens Lowery
James. Norman
Not bad going forward
I'm optimistic on the future, but that list includes 7 players that haven't played a minute for MU. Who knows how the roster will shake out?
By not playing the portal game and not going after one and dones, it will be very hard to be a Top 20 team year in and year out. You have to put together top 10 recruiting classes almost every year to be that consistent vs. the blue bloods who recruit kids that are ready as freshman. MU has not had that player lately, hopefully one of the frosh this year surprises. Secondly you can not have a weak class, right now Gold, Ross and an injured Jones was not terrific, average at best
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 02:49:23 PM
By not playing the portal game and not going after one and dones, it will be very hard to be a Top 20 team year in and year out. You have to put together top 10 recruiting classes almost every year to be that consistent vs. the blue bloods who recruit kids that are ready as freshman. MU has not had that player lately, hopefully one of the frosh this year surprises. Secondly you can not have a weak class, right now Gold, Ross and an injured Jones was not terrific, average at best
Or maybe a continuity of players and good coaching will be good enough. We will see.
Quote from: MUbiz on July 26, 2024, 12:52:32 PM
Do you have a link for said article please?
It's behind a paywall
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 02:49:23 PM
By not playing the portal game and not going after one and dones, it will be very hard to be a Top 20 team year in and year out. You have to put together top 10 recruiting classes almost every year to be that consistent vs. the blue bloods who recruit kids that are ready as freshman. MU has not had that player lately, hopefully one of the frosh this year surprises. Secondly you can not have a weak class, right now Gold, Ross and an injured Jones was not terrific, average at best
UW-Madison would like a word.
Wojo was a great recruiter, but that didn't translate to post season success. Bo Ryan was a mediocre recruiter, but was consistently in the top 20 and went to the National Championship game twice. Zero one and done's for Bo.
Coaching, culture, and development is essential, if not more important than recruiting.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 26, 2024, 03:00:48 PM
UW-Madison would like a word.
Wojo was a great recruiter, but that didn't translate to post season success. Bo Ryan was a mediocre recruiter, but was consistently in the top 20 and went to the National Championship game twice. Zero one and done's for Bo.
Coaching, culture, and development is essential, if not more important than recruiting.
Once.
Quote from: We R Final Four on July 26, 2024, 03:05:39 PM
Once.
Sorry, I meant final four and then NC. Regardless, he had sustained success without having guys that were highly recruited.
How many recent championships does Calipari have with all of his one and done recruits? Last one was TWELVE years ago.
Shaka is doing it old school. Recruit 3-4 stars, retain them and develop them. MU has flourished when they had a coach that zigged when others zagged. I find it fun and invigorating to go against the zeitgeist.
Shaka will not go to the portal until he has to. And that will be due to unexpected departures.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 26, 2024, 03:12:30 PM
Sorry, I meant final four and then NC. Regardless, he had sustained success without having guys that were highly recruited.
How many recent championships does Calipari have with all of his one and done recruits? Last one was TWELVE years ago.
Never liked what Calapari was doing, even he knew it was wrong. Freshman at his level, have one thought on there mind, NBA. Shephard and Dillingham were on the bench, tells you about his coaching. Shephard came to MU they would have gotten to the final 4. He's proven his system does not work, but adding the portal will help him
Quote from: tower912 on July 26, 2024, 03:22:22 PM
Shaka is doing it old school. Recruit 3-4 stars, retain them and develop them. MU has flourished when they had a coach that zigged when others zagged. I find it fun and invigorating to go against the zeitgeist.
Shaka will not go to the portal until he has to. And that will be due to unexpected departures.
Shaka system is more interesting watching players develop but not sure this system will work over the long haul
I disagree. Stability and development is a sounder long term strategy than hitting the free agent market every off season and getting into bidding wars for players who have already shown themselves to be dissatisfied.
Quote from: tower912 on July 26, 2024, 03:30:57 PM
I disagree. Stability and development is a sounder long term strategy than hitting the free agent market every off season and getting into bidding wars for players who have already shown themselves to be dissatisfied.
Agreed. Not to mention, there are plenty of guys who are highly recruited who don't end up being all that good. And there are plenty of guys who fly under the radar for recruiting and end up in the NBA.
Getting a highly coveted recruit isn't essential to winning a NC.
Crean: Can't recruit bigs, can't beat a zone, too many transfers.
Buzz: Too many Jucos, never puts his offense in until conference season, questionable character. Too many transfers.
Wojo: only transfers he brings in are 5th years, doesn't recruit to a system, doesn't bring in big guards or athletic wings, too many transfers.
Shaka: Recruits size and athleticism to fit his system. Good character kids. Retains and develops Huh. NOT ENOUGH TRANFERS TO STAY COMPETITIVE LONG TERM.
Quote from: tower912 on July 26, 2024, 03:30:57 PM
I disagree. Stability and development is a sounder long term strategy than hitting the free agent market every off season and getting into bidding wars for players who have already shown themselves to be dissatisfied.
If you are content to be an above average team, win a game or two in the tourney, so be it. I would like more.
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 04:33:03 PM
If you are content to be an above average team, win a game or two in the tourney, so be it. I would like more.
UConn is famous for being above average, and wining a game or two in the tourney.
Bobby Hurley brought in one 5 star guy in the last four years. And that was last year and Stephon Castle... after they'd already won a Natty.
I get what you're trying to say, but the data doesn't really back up your hypothesis.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 26, 2024, 04:37:31 PM
UConn is famous for being above average, and wining a game or two in the tourney.
Bobby Hurley brought in one 5 star guy in the last four years. And that was last year and Stephon Castle... after they'd already won a Natty.
I get what you're trying to say, but the data doesn't really back up your hypothesis.
Hurley got a 5 star recruit and maybe the best portal player last year. Doing the same this upcoming season
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 04:43:02 PM
Hurley got a 5 star recruit and maybe the best portal player last year. Doing the same this upcoming season
After having won it all already without those things.
Add one portal player every year where you see weaknesses moving forward. He will not do that but should. Secondly, he has a big enough name to go after a top 20 recruit, missed on KK, tried. Thirdly, try and keep local talent here
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 04:33:03 PM
If you are content to be an above average team, win a game or two in the tourney, so be it. I would like more.
UConn won nothing in Hurley's first 4 years. Nada. In Year 5, they started well but had a 2-6 stretch that caused them to fall out of the top 20. Going into February, they were hardly a national title favorite. But then they got hot again and, despite losing to Marquette in the BET, caught a big-time hot streak in March. That's often how most national titles are won.
Very often, the team deemed the "best" doesn't win the title. That Hurley was able to win it all as both the acknowledged "best" in 2024 and as the "hot team at the right time" in 2023 deserves plaudits.
But it doesn't mean it's impossible for Marquette or any other team to duplicate what UConn did in 2023. And if we're talking about "just" getting to the Final Four, look at the teams that have done so the last two years.
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 04:48:32 PM
Add one portal player every year where you see weaknesses moving forward. He will not do that but should. Secondly, he has a big enough name to go after a top 20 recruit, missed on KK, tried. Thirdly, try and keep local talent here
Why? And cut kids and toss out his culture to bring in someone who may or may not be better and a better fit? While undermining trust?
Secondly, he has an offer out to a 5 star 2026.
Thirdly, why? Particularly if he can get better talent elsewhere. Kind of a narrow minded, provincial attitude. Plus, he has local talent. Your favorite player, David Joplin.
Would you rather have Ward or Jensen?
Help me out. Local guys who stayed 4 years in this millennium. Novak, Diener, Heldt? Joplin will be the fourth?
I would like both, saw Jensen last year, has improved over the summer, think he has big upside, Ward no idea but great stats at the Peach Jam against the best high school kids in America. Jensen would be a nice pickup when Gold is gone. Ward is going to after the two freshman in the program right now. Do you like Batemon or Stevens, do you like Clark over Kai Rogers?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on July 26, 2024, 04:37:31 PM
UConn is famous for being above average, and wining a game or two in the tourney.
Bobby Hurley brought in one 5 star guy in the last four years. And that was last year and Stephon Castle... after they'd already won a Natty.
I get what you're trying to say, but the data doesn't really back up your hypothesis.
*Danny
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 05:17:37 PM
I would like both, saw Jensen last year, has improved over the summer, think he has big upside, Ward no idea but great stats at the Peach Jam against the best high school kids in America. Jensen would be a nice pickup when Gold is gone. Ward is going to after the two freshman in the program right now. Do you like Batemon or Stevens, do you like Clark over Kai Rogers?
I like Clark because he said yes. Rogers had a chance and did not take it. Now MU needs versatile switchables, not more bigs. So give me Ward. Bateman already said yes to Iowa State, so who cares? Stevens, obviously.
I'd like to give Brian Wardle a chance. The Shaka era is a bust
Quote from: tower912 on July 26, 2024, 05:58:03 PM
I like Clark because he said yes. Rogers had a chance and did not take it. Now MU needs versatile switchables, not more bigs. So give me Ward. Bateman already said yes to Iowa State, so who cares? Stevens, obviously.
You really did not answer the question? But are those 2 from Milwaukee better than a player that did not have an offer from a Texas school or a guy with many offers? Batemon lost got it, but was he better then Stevens time will tell.
I did. I prefer Clark because he said yes. I prefer Stevens because he hasn't committed elsewhere.
And they aren't local.to me.
While I certainly wouldn't have said no to Rogers, I do think Clark is a much better fit in this system. I was a bit surprised we were in on Rogers as long as we were, he just doesn't seem to fit the mold of what we're after, especially with Caedin Hamilton already in the fold. Clark looks more mobile and longer.
I would've liked Batemon, but Iowa State was in there first with strong local ties and it was just too much ground to make up. It happens.
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 04:48:32 PM
Add one portal player every year where you see weaknesses moving forward. He will not do that but should. Secondly, he has a big enough name to go after a top 20 recruit, missed on KK, tried. Thirdly, try and keep local talent here
If only Shaka were as Smart as you.
Maybe Danny Hurley is just a better coach than Shaka.
And what do you think MU should do about that?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on July 26, 2024, 08:33:30 PM
Maybe Danny Hurley is just a better coach than Shaka.
And what do you think MU should do about that?
Hire him
Quote from: BCHoopster on July 26, 2024, 04:33:03 PM
If you are content to be an above average team, win a game or two in the tourney, so be it. I would like more.
I would like more too. I do feel Shaka will gets us to a FF. A lot has to go our way, of course. But we have the facilities and finances, and I think the talent will ultimately come together, so I'm optimistic.
MU had teams the last two season that could have made the final 4. But they lost. So, MU is there. But, come tournament time, shoot a normal percentage from 3.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 25, 2024, 08:18:43 PM
Or what?
Pretty obvious. Or Hurley keeps building that distance. Sorry you cannot figure such simple things out.
Quote from: tower912 on July 26, 2024, 09:06:40 PM
MU had teams the last two season that could have made the final 4. But they lost. So, MU is there. But, come tournament time, shoot a normal percentage from 3.
100%
Quote from: Viper on July 26, 2024, 09:01:26 PM
But we have the facilities and finances, and I think the talent will ultimately come together, so I'm optimistic.
I'm less optimistic on the finances...
Quote from: Viper on July 26, 2024, 09:01:26 PM
I would like more too. I do feel Shaka will gets us to a FF. A lot has to go our way, of course. But we have the facilities and finances, and I think the talent will ultimately come together, so I'm optimistic.
But the real question is does Shaka beat RED?
Quote from: willie warrior on July 27, 2024, 05:59:24 AM
Pretty obvious. Or Hurley keeps building that distance. Sorry you cannot figure such simple things out.
Another immutable truth revealed only by your enchanting wit, Dung Willie
Quote from: avid1010 on July 27, 2024, 07:03:46 AM
I'm less optimistic on the finances...
I'll start worrying about the finances when I see actual worrisome data coupled with a trend.
The new reality is too new for any trend, and I haven't seen data suggesting Marquette can't compete.
Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2024, 08:40:30 AM
I'll start worrying about the finances when I see actual worrisome data coupled with a trend.
The new reality is too new for any trend, and I haven't seen data suggesting Marquette can't compete.
MU pays there players well, can compete but can they compete like Arkansas or Kentucky not sure.
Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2024, 08:40:30 AM
I'll start worrying about the finances when I see actual worrisome data coupled with a trend.
The new reality is too new for any trend, and I haven't seen data suggesting Marquette can't compete.
I agree, but money does not always equate to Championships; just look at the Dodgers and Yankees.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 27, 2024, 05:59:24 AM
Pretty obvious. Or Hurley keeps building that distance. Sorry you cannot figure such simple things out.
Continuously the dumbest person on scoop
Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2024, 08:40:30 AM
I'll start worrying about the finances when I see actual worrisome data coupled with a trend.
The new reality is too new for any trend, and I haven't seen data suggesting Marquette can't compete.
I'm not sure Shaka doesn't take a swing at the portal or a 5 star if the money is there. I've seen and heard enough to be concerned. Not that MU can't compete, but they aren't top 25 in payroll. That's mostly coming from a discussion with a former Crean era player....could certainly be poor info.
I think Shaka is taking the right approach given MU's financial situation, but I admittedly don't know the specifics. It would be interesting if things were more transparent with the $...I think people would view things differently.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 27, 2024, 11:26:36 AM
I'm not sure Shaka doesn't take a swing at the portal or a 5 star if the money is there. I've seen and heard enough to be concerned. Not that MU can't compete, but they aren't top 25 in payroll. That's mostly coming from a discussion with a former Crean era player....could certainly be poor info.
I think Shaka is taking the right approach given MU's financial situation, but I admittedly don't know the specifics. It would be interesting if things were more transparent with the $...I think people would view things differently.
I see the foundation of Shaka's team and culture being chemistry, and someone coming in making $1 million+ before putting on a MU uniform would upend that, as it has other teams (Seton Hall last season, for example, SLU a few years ago, Fresno State women, Miami).
Quote from: avid1010 on July 27, 2024, 11:26:36 AM
I'm not sure Shaka doesn't take a swing at the portal or a 5 star if the money is there. I've seen and heard enough to be concerned. Not that MU can't compete, but they aren't top 25 in payroll. That's mostly coming from a discussion with a former Crean era player....could certainly be poor info.
I think Shaka is taking the right approach given MU's financial situation, but I admittedly don't know the specifics. It would be interesting if things were more transparent with the $...I think people would view things differently.
If what you are suggesting is true, why would MUBB want transparency?
Based on the responses, I'm comfortable repeating:
The new reality is too new for any trend, and I haven't seen data suggesting Marquette can't compete.
Quote from: MurphysTillClose on July 27, 2024, 09:45:00 AM
Continuously the dumbest person on scoop
Says an expert on dumb.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 27, 2024, 08:10:19 PM
Says an expert on dumb.
You shall be named the Savant of Cognizance, Dung Willie
Quote from: wadesworld on July 27, 2024, 08:11:38 AM
But the real question is does Shaka beat RED?
...Gard does know ball
Quote from: avid1010 on July 27, 2024, 07:03:46 AM
I'm less optimistic on the finances...
Donate to the NIL. Every dollar helps.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on July 28, 2024, 07:45:38 AM
Oh shut up!
...but Shaka will get the W this December on home court. Guaranteed.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on July 27, 2024, 11:36:43 AM
I see the foundation of Shaka's team and culture being chemistry, and someone coming in making $1 million+ before putting on a MU uniform would upend that, as it has other teams (Seton Hall last season, for example, SLU a few years ago, Fresno State women, Miami).
Fresno State women is quite the take.
Quote from: Viper on July 28, 2024, 11:21:04 AM
...but Shaka will get the W this December on home court. Guaranteed.
:D We're good!
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on July 27, 2024, 11:36:43 AM
I see the foundation of Shaka's team and culture being chemistry, and someone coming in making $1 million+ before putting on a MU uniform would upend that, as it has other teams (Seton Hall last season, for example, SLU a few years ago, Fresno State women, Miami).
I don't disagree...but we can surely name a number of cases where paying someone that kind of money paid off. UCONN...
Again, I think Shaka is doing the right thing given the money MU has. I'm a bit concerned with what that looks like moving forward, but he was obviously not worried enough to bolt to UK.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 28, 2024, 04:44:49 PM
I don't disagree...but we can surely name a number of cases where paying someone that kind of money paid off. UCONN...
Again, I think Shaka is doing the right thing given the money MU has. I'm a bit concerned with what that looks like moving forward, but he was obviously not worried enough to bolt to UK.
How much money does UConn have? What have they paid specific players? How much money does MU have? What are your sources? Thanks in advance for your answers.
Quote from: Goose on July 25, 2024, 10:36:29 AM
I cannot think of anything that Shaka could do that would diminish my respect and appreciation for what he has done for the program and the university. If in five years they have not advanced past a S16 I will be very disappointed, but still strongly in his camp. My biggest interest for the program is to see the excitement level remain high because MU benefits from that exposure.
IMO, I have seen more very good to great basketball over the past two years than any time since the 1970's and I expect we will see more in the upcoming years. Shaka created excitement around the program extremely quickly and I want that to remain. To do so, I firmly believe it needs more success in March. Again, I firmly believe the excitement continues this year and this team may end up being the biggest surprise of the Shaka tenure at MU.
This cannot be understated. Not only have we been very good under Shaka, we play a brand of basketball that is so much fun to watch.
I mentioned toward the end of last season that I feared the 2023-2024 season would be the peak under Shaka, and I stlll fear that, but he has more than earned the right to try to prove me wrong for as long as he wants to stay in Milwaukee or 7-8 seasons, whichever comes first.
Quote from: MU82 on July 27, 2024, 02:07:10 PM
Based on the responses, I'm comfortable repeating:
The new reality is too new for any trend, and I haven't seen data suggesting Marquette can't compete.
Exactly. Who knows what any school/org will be spending in five or even three years.
Quote from: MU82 on July 29, 2024, 07:47:05 AM
How much money does UConn have? What have they paid specific players? How much money does MU have? What are your sources? Thanks in advance for your answers.
It's hard for me to respond to this without sounding like a tool, but I would be interested in a real conversation about this given that I'm sure there are people on this board that have had conversations with D1 athletes, former, athletes, coaches, etc. at a deeper level than me.
I know the family's of six current D1 players, have spoken with a few former players (one in great depth), and have spoken with a handful of D1 Assistant coaches or lesser staff members.
I believe UK offered more money to a encourage a kid to transfer (honestly telling him he would only play meaningful minutes given an injury) then some high level D1 school were giving their starting talent. What makes this story interesting, is that the kid didn't take the $ because he wanted to showcase his skills at a lesser school in hopes of increasing his value overseas upon graduation. I would think that happens often, and keeps a Kam Jones at MU...he has a lot to lose if a transfer doesn't go well.
Again, I love Shaka and his approach....wouldn't want MU to change a thing even if they had the money, but when I hear fans feeling Shaka isn't using the portal appropriately I'm not sure that's a possibility even if he wasn't worried about impact on culture. I think they get outbid. I admittedly don't know this to be a fact.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 31, 2024, 07:21:00 AM
It's hard for me to respond to this without sounding like a tool, but I would be interested in a real conversation about this given that I'm sure there are people on this board that have had conversations with D1 athletes, former, athletes, coaches, etc. at a deeper level than me.
I know the family's of six current D1 players, have spoken with a few former players (one in great depth), and have spoken with a handful of D1 Assistant coaches or lesser staff members.
I believe UK offered more money to a encourage a kid to transfer (honestly telling him he would only play meaningful minutes given an injury) then some high level D1 school were giving their starting talent. What makes this story interesting, is that the kid didn't take the $ because he wanted to showcase his skills at a lesser school in hopes of increasing his value overseas upon graduation. I would think that happens often, and keeps a Kam Jones at MU...he has a lot to lose if a transfer doesn't go well.
Again, I love Shaka and his approach....wouldn't want MU to change a thing even if they had the money, but when I hear fans feeling Shaka isn't using the portal appropriately I'm not sure that's a possibility even if he wasn't worried about impact on culture. I think they get outbid. I admittedly don't know this to be a fact.
The counterpoint would be, they haven't had to use the portal. They could have, but didn't have to.
I think no one knows how Marquette would fare in the portal having to rebuild a roster, ala, Wisconsin this year. We can guess, but that's all it would be.
While Shaka built his first roster with portal additions, we need to remember that's pre-NIL. I've been perplexed at the hand-wringing from some on scoop about his use of the portal considering how successful they've been in 3 years.
Rico,
There is little to question how Shaka has made things happen and I agree on the level of concern on not using the portal. I admit, he completely shocked me with approach that he has taken, but I am all in on his decision. That said, if a portal addition is added from time to time, I would be all in on that as well.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 31, 2024, 07:21:00 AM
It's hard for me to respond to this without sounding like a tool, but I would be interested in a real conversation about this given that I'm sure there are people on this board that have had conversations with D1 athletes, former, athletes, coaches, etc. at a deeper level than me.
I know the family's of six current D1 players, have spoken with a few former players (one in great depth), and have spoken with a handful of D1 Assistant coaches or lesser staff members.
I believe UK offered more money to a encourage a kid to transfer (honestly telling him he would only play meaningful minutes given an injury) then some high level D1 school were giving their starting talent. What makes this story interesting, is that the kid didn't take the $ because he wanted to showcase his skills at a lesser school in hopes of increasing his value overseas upon graduation. I would think that happens often, and keeps a Kam Jones at MU...he has a lot to lose if a transfer doesn't go well.
Again, I love Shaka and his approach....wouldn't want MU to change a thing even if they had the money, but when I hear fans feeling Shaka isn't using the portal appropriately I'm not sure that's a possibility even if he wasn't worried about impact on culture. I think they get outbid. I admittedly don't know this to be a fact.
You don't sound like a tool. But you have had several posts in which I believe you have been overly alarmist, especially given what we know so far and what has happened so far. I bolded a part of this post for emphasis to show something that I very much agree with.
I am trying to be pragmatic about all of this - I obviously know it's happening, that big money is being spent in some programs, and that Marquette will never be the leader in that spending. But I have seen no evidence that I should be losing sleep over it, given what Shaka has accomplished so far. In that respect, I agree with Unk's response.
Maybe in 1, 3, 5, 10 years Marquette will be doomed. Or maybe we'll be thriving big-time. Or most probably something in between those extremes.
I think anyone that thinks MU is doomed due to NIL is making a very big mistake. First, I think there might be guard rails put into play somewhere down the line and it will level the playing field to some degree. Secondly, I have no concern over MU having MU to compete on almost every player that they would like to get or retain. That said, it does not mean they will win every time.
From what I know, it seems to me that MU has a great process in place for NIL contracts. It may end up looking like an outstanding process if guard rails are put into place because MU will have a head start on how to play the game. Not for one second do I think Shaka is losing sleep over MU NIL money. If he was/is, he had a couple of chances to go to the deep pocket programs this past spring.
Quote from: Goose on July 31, 2024, 08:36:58 AM
I think anyone that thinks MU is doomed due to NIL is making a very big mistake. First, I think there might be guard rails put into play somewhere down the line and it will level the playing field to some degree. Secondly, I have no concern over MU having MU to compete on almost every player that they would like to get or retain. That said, it does not mean they will win every time.
From what I know, it seems to me that MU has a great process in place for NIL contracts. It may end up looking like an outstanding process if guard rails are put into place because MU will have a head start on how to play the game. Not for one second do I think Shaka is losing sleep over MU NIL money. If he was/is, he had a couple of chances to go to the deep pocket programs this past spring.
Yep.
Crean left (at least in part) because he felt Marquette couldn't consistently recruit with the bluebloods. Buzz left (at least in part) because he thought the new Big East wouldn't be viable. If Shaka didn't believe Marquette could compete at a national level, he probably could have doubled his salary elsewhere.
Quote from: Goose on July 31, 2024, 08:36:58 AM
I think anyone that thinks MU is doomed due to NIL is making a very big mistake. First, I think there might be guard rails put into play somewhere down the line and it will level the playing field to some degree. Secondly, I have no concern over MU having MU to compete on almost every player that they would like to get or retain. That said, it does not mean they will win every time.
From what I know, it seems to me that MU has a great process in place for NIL contracts. It may end up looking like an outstanding process if guard rails are put into place because MU will have a head start on how to play the game. Not for one second do I think Shaka is losing sleep over MU NIL money. If he was/is, he had a couple of chances to go to the deep pocket programs this past spring.
The only way "guardrails" can be put in place is if the players are considered employees, form a union, and allow for a salary cap. But even a salary cap doesn't cap outside NIL deals. Given that, I doubt there are guardrails ever put in place. This is the system that the NCAA's ignorance has lead us to. And Marquette will have to manage like it always has.
That being said, Marquette is prioritizing its NIL money to keep its own rather than to get new transfers in. I doubt they were "outbid" by anybody, because I doubt they did anything more but kick the tires on a couple guys. And I think it is safe to say that if the first question out of a player's mouth was "what about NIL," the conversation ended pretty quickly.
Quote from: MU82 on July 31, 2024, 08:54:21 AM
Yep.
Crean left (at least in part) because he felt Marquette couldn't consistently recruit with the bluebloods. Buzz left (at least in part) because he thought the new Big East wouldn't be viable. If Shaka didn't believe Marquette could compete at a national level, he probably could have doubled his salary elsewhere.
Not sure if doubled is accurate, but there were three high profile jobs that tried to lure Shaka before settling on the coaches they hired. One an unquestionable blue blood.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 31, 2024, 09:47:18 AM
Not sure if doubled is accurate, but there were three high profile jobs that tried to lure Shaka before settling on the coaches they hired. One an unquestionable blue blood.
Michigan, Kentucky, ?
Goose and Sultan are correct
Sultan
I do think there will be changes to how the NIL is handled and will become a bit less chaotic. It is out of hand at the moment, and something needs to be done, even if minor changes. If that happens, I think MU's model will be used by more programs.
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 31, 2024, 09:54:23 AM
Michigan, Kentucky, ?
Ohio State before they took the interim tag off Diebler.
Quote from: Goose on July 31, 2024, 10:11:22 AM
Sultan
I do think there will be changes to how the NIL is handled and will become a bit less chaotic. It is out of hand at the moment, and something needs to be done, even if minor changes. If that happens, I think MU's model will be used by more programs.
I think schools will be "smarter" with their money as a couple of years experience will inform how they spend money in the future. But unless there is political involvement of some sort, any changes would not be able to be imposed from the outside.
And I would also argue that something does not need to be done. Its a free market. It will sort itself out.
NIL is the ruination of college athletics, as we knew it, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 31, 2024, 11:52:19 AM
NIL is the ruination of college athletics, as we knew it, aina?
Never felt better about the future of college athletics
Sultan
We agree on something other than MU basketball. I also do not think anything needs to be changed because it is a free market and that is part of the reason why I think changes will happen.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 31, 2024, 11:52:19 AM
NIL is the ruination of college athletics, as we knew it, aina?
Just like conference realignment was. And Tourney expansion. And the CFP. And the FBI investigation. And the transfer portal. Etc.
swoopem
I believe all three reached out to Shaka this past spring.
To anyone new to the mubb program under Shaka Smart, hello, and welcome. Please take the time to read through this thread as it will contain vital information on how and why Shaka is building the program the way that he is. Upon completion, if you have any question, feel free to ask, however, if your questions (or opines) have been answered within the first page of this thread you may face some ridicule and be asked to re-read the thread.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 07, 2025, 05:07:05 PMTo anyone new to the mubb program under Shaka Smart, hello, and welcome. Please take the time to read through this thread as it will contain vital information on how and why Shaka is building the program the way that he is. Upon completion, if you have any question, feel free to ask, however, if your questions (or opines) have been answered within the first page of this thread you may face some ridicule and be asked to re-read the thread.
You're asking too much
For the uninitiated or who are new to MU basketball, stop posting about MU basketball period. Whatever happens is going to happen. Shaka is going to do what he is going to do. The players are going to play how they are going to play. There really is NOTHING to discuss. Basketball strategy and recruiting and the portal are boring anyway. You guys are all losers.
Did I get that right?
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 07, 2025, 05:07:05 PMTo anyone new to the mubb program under Shaka Smart, hello, and welcome. Please take the time to read through this thread as it will contain vital information on how and why Shaka is building the program the way that he is. Upon completion, if you have any question, feel free to ask, however, if your questions (or opines) have been answered within the first page of this thread you may face some ridicule and be asked to re-read the thread.
I have a question, and an opine. Are two in a single post allowed?
Quote from: Viper on March 08, 2025, 07:27:30 AMI have a question, and an opine. Are two in a single post allowed?
Not if they're hyperbole
This is absolutely INSANE!
https://x.com/TheFieldOf68/status/1898885865637544440?t=SaVV6WfDyi1NPVR6vyHzqA&s=19
Eh. Don't really care.
Crazy to me that even the back to back champs have issues retaining players. Wild times.
.....and 3 burger boys coming in as well.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 07, 2025, 10:01:07 PMFor the uninitiated or who are new to MU basketball, stop posting about MU basketball period. Whatever happens is going to happen. Shaka is going to do what he is going to do. The players are going to play how they are going to play. There really is NOTHING to discuss. Basketball strategy and recruiting and the portal are boring anyway. You guys are all losers.
Did I get that right?
Can we still wear our lucky MU shirts?
Please.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on March 09, 2025, 07:16:52 PMThis is absolutely INSANE!
https://x.com/TheFieldOf68/status/1898885865637544440?t=SaVV6WfDyi1NPVR6vyHzqA&s=19
And yet our coach hasn't lost a player to the portal the last 3 years, despite having several highly regarded players that many schools would have loved to have stolen. Pretty damn impressive job selling the Marquette basketball culture.
Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2025, 11:02:06 PMAnd yet our coach hasn't lost a player to the portal the last 3 years, despite having several highly regarded players that many schools would have loved to have stolen. Pretty damn impressive job selling the Marquette basketball culture.
Yup!
It's the best way forward for us.
Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2025, 11:02:06 PMAnd yet our coach hasn't lost a player to the portal the last 3 years, despite having several highly regarded players that many schools would have loved to have stolen. Pretty damn impressive job selling the Marquette basketball culture.
And it won't be four years in a row. A certain injured PG is in the portal right now.
Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2025, 11:02:06 PMAnd yet our coach hasn't lost a player to the portal the last 3 years, despite having several highly regarded players that many schools would have loved to have stolen. Pretty damn impressive job selling the Marquette basketball culture.
He did lose players, but none of them were seeing minutes.
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 10, 2025, 08:04:14 PMAnd it won't be four years in a row. A certain injured PG is in the portal right now.
Que?
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 10, 2025, 08:04:14 PMAnd it won't be four years in a row. A certain injured PG is in the portal right now.
Sean?
Quote from: The Sultan on March 10, 2025, 08:33:20 PMSean?
Sean is not injured. Maybe meant PG who was injured.
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 10, 2025, 08:04:14 PMAnd it won't be four years in a row. A certain injured PG is in the portal right now.
Not a single NCAA hoops player is "in the portal right now", but if you've got a scoop, c'mon!
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 10, 2025, 08:04:14 PMAnd it won't be four years in a row. A certain injured PG is in the portal right now.
Source?
You're now the second person I've seen here saying that Sean will transfer.
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 10, 2025, 08:04:14 PMAnd it won't be four years in a row. A certain injured PG is in the portal right now.
Are you saying Sean is portaling?
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on March 11, 2025, 01:35:48 PMAre you saying Sean is portaling?
Maybe Shaka will portal then? Can not believe he would leave that position with only a freshman and Norman?
Quote from: BCHoopster on March 11, 2025, 02:40:18 PMMaybe Shaka will portal then? Can not believe he would leave that position with only a freshman and Norman?
He would probably call Seth Trimble
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 10, 2025, 08:29:17 PMQue?
The Portal does not open until March 24. Players can announce they are going in (North Dakota's stud who dropped 40 on Alabama announced his intent to enter) but as of now, nobody is officially in the Portal.
Quote from: BCHoopster on March 11, 2025, 02:40:18 PMMaybe Shaka will portal then? Can not believe he would leave that position with only a freshman and Norman?
I'd still be surprised to see him use the portal, but would obviously welcome it if we are losing our starting caliber PG.
Onto NYC
https://x.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1899580145888907473?t=voajesq_K2APVu8K2m1ISw&s=19
Sean is probably transferring because of all the pics Herm downloaded of his mom
Quote from: Miss Katie's on March 11, 2025, 12:55:34 PMSource?
You're now the second person I've seen here saying that Sean will transfer.
He's good as gone. Already exploring his options and discussing terms with other programs.
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 11, 2025, 07:57:15 PMHe's good as gone. Already exploring his options and discussing terms with other programs.
Sarcasm?
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 11, 2025, 07:57:15 PMHe's good as gone. Already exploring his options and discussing terms with other programs.
I assume you won't disappear if that doesn't happen, right?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 11, 2025, 08:25:53 PMI assume you won't disappear if that doesn't happen, right?
Why? Who wants a kid that's tiny coming off a bad injury?
Quote from: BCHoopster on March 11, 2025, 08:30:50 PMWhy? Who wants a kid that's tiny coming off a bad injury?
Apparently, plenty of schools smarter than random message board posters
Maybe SJ transfers, but panda doesn't know sh1t.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 11, 2025, 08:25:53 PMI assume you won't disappear if that doesn't happen, right?
That won't be an issue
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 10, 2025, 09:43:11 PMNot a single NCAA hoops player is "in the portal right now", but if you've got a scoop, c'mon!
I used to believe in Santa Claus too
Loves Marquette.....Mom loves Shaka......starting spot now open......makes perfect sense.....
Quote from: MuMark on March 11, 2025, 09:12:08 PMLoves Marquette.....Mom loves Shaka......starting spot now open......makes perfect sense.....
Panda must be a dentist
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 11, 2025, 09:11:27 PMI used to believe in Santa Claus too
Trust me, I have plenty of doubts Shaka retains everyone this year, but I've got no proof... Yet.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2025, 12:07:16 AMTrust me, I have plenty of doubts Shaka retains everyone this year, but I've got no proof... Yet.
As difficult as it is to believe, the players just
may have a better idea of their PT prospects and how they match up than scoopers. I know, I know....sounds crazy, doesn't it?
It's getting spicy in here!
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 12, 2025, 08:17:56 AMAs difficult as it is to believe, the players just may have a better idea of their PT prospects and how they match up than scoopers. I know, I know....sounds crazy, doesn't it?
It does. Fans know what is better for the players. That's been long established
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 12, 2025, 08:17:56 AMAs difficult as it is to believe, the players just may have a better idea of their PT prospects and how they match up than scoopers. I know, I know....sounds crazy, doesn't it?
Did I say anything contrary to that?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2025, 08:30:12 AMDid I say anything contrary to that?
Nope. I'm guessing that you haven't had your coffee yet Rocky. ;D
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 12, 2025, 08:17:56 AMAs difficult as it is to believe, the players just may have a better idea of their PT prospects and how they match up than scoopers. I know, I know....sounds crazy, doesn't it?
I know you know this, but transfer decisions come down to more than playing time.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 12, 2025, 08:35:21 AMNope. I'm guessing that you haven't had your coffee yet Rocky. ;D
Good point, just made my first shot of espresso.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2025, 08:38:18 AMGood point, just made my first shot of espresso.
Are we still friends Rocky? ;D
Quote from: The Sultan on March 12, 2025, 08:35:22 AMI know you know this, but transfer decisions come down to more than playing time.
Usually, it's about academics
Quote from: panda2.0 on March 11, 2025, 09:11:27 PMI used to believe in Santa Claus too
I still do! I have my red suit and all.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 11, 2025, 02:49:27 PMThe Portal does not open until March 24. Players can announce they are going in (North Dakota's stud who dropped 40 on Alabama announced his intent to enter) but as of now, nobody is officially in the Portal.
There are some exceptions.
Anyone who is (or expects to be) a graduate transfer can enter now.
In addition, the portal opens for 30 days starting the day a coach leaves, so some of these mid-season or early coach departures give some players a head start. For example, Virgina players could enter the portal way back in October after Tony Bennett left--they didn't have to wait until March 24.
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 12, 2025, 11:49:30 AMThere are some exceptions.
Anyone who is (or expects to be) a graduate transfer can enter now.
In addition, the portal opens for 30 days starting the day a coach leaves, so some of these mid-season or early coach departures give some players a head start. For example, Virgina players could enter the portal way back in October after Tony Bennett left--they didn't have to wait until March 24.
Pretty safe bet, Sean knows Shaka is leaving
Quote from: The Sultan on March 12, 2025, 08:35:22 AMI know you know this, but transfer decisions come down to more than playing time.
Yep. And it's hard to imagine that Sean doesn't see himself as the top-minute PG for Marquette I'm 2025-26. Also hard to imagine that Shaka told him anything differently.
Quote from: MU82 on March 12, 2025, 05:03:34 PMYep. And it's hard to imagine that Sean doesn't see himself as the top-minute PG for Marquette I'm 2025-26. Also hard to imagine that Shaka told him anything differently.
I'm concerned
I would hate to see Sean transfer since he seems like a nice young man and can probably be a good player. Seems odd that he would leave Shaka, especially after the surgery, rehab, and Shaka allowing him to come back at his own pace. But, if some other school is willing to give him a big payday and that is his priority, so be it. MU is bound to lose a player to the portal every now and then.
Quote from: rgoode57 on Today at 08:25:31 AMI would hate to see Sean transfer since he seems like a nice young man and can probably be a good player. Seems odd that he would leave Shaka, especially after the surgery, rehab, and Shaka allowing him to come back at his own pace. But, if some other school is willing to give him a big payday and that is his priority, so be it. MU is bound to lose a player to the portal every now and then.
Anything's possible but this seems like nonsense. Also, excited about Sean but I don't see how any school would offer him a big pay day based on his limited production and the fact that he's coming off major surgery and won't have played a game in almost 2 years by the time November rolls around.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on Today at 08:44:57 AMAnything's possible but this seems like nonsense. Also, excited about Sean but I don't see how any school would offer him a big pay day based on his limited production and the fact that he's coming off major surgery and won't have played a game in almost 2 years by the time November rolls around.
This is by far the best answer I have seen yet. Kudos!
Quote from: BCHoopster on March 11, 2025, 08:30:50 PMWhy? Who wants a kid that's tiny coming off a bad injury?
good lord
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on Today at 08:44:57 AMAnything's possible but this seems like nonsense. Also, excited about Sean but I don't see how any school would offer him a big pay day based on his limited production and the fact that he's coming off major surgery and won't have played a game in almost 2 years by the time November rolls around.
How dare you? Nonsense in Scoop!!!
Quote from: Newsdreams on Today at 09:34:13 AMHow dare you? Nonsense in Scoop!!!
I know Scoop is typically the bastion of objectivity, logic, facts, and truth but every once in a while some nonsense slips in. I'm as appalled as you are.