MUScoop

Thinking past the next game (A MORTAL SIN!!!) how much does the 2nd weekend matter to you this year in terms of your long-term Shaka support?

Shaka is awesome and I can't say how happy I am with this program. That said, for me Tourney success trumps everything else - the regular season is prelude and winning there matters to me primarily because it puts us in a better position in the tourney. I'd rather go 19-12 and 10-10 in conference and make the E8 as an 8 seed than do what we did last year. I fully trust Shaka to take this team to the S16 and beyond this year, and will be majorly disappointed if we don't - this whole year, throughout the ups and downs, my baseline for success is making the 2nd weekend. As others have pointed out, other than the FF run, Shaka does not have a stellar track record in the tournament. While in NO WAY am I suggesting that his seat should be in any way warm with an early exit, it would raise some doubt in my mind if he's our forever guy if in two consecutive years he can't get a 2/3 seed to the S16.

Shaka's record at Texas was remarkably similar to Wojo''s at MU.   Shaka is at MU because he lost as a 3 seed to 14 seed Abilene Christian.   
   I think Shaka is a far better coach and admire and appreciate what he has done at MU.    I think this team is more than good enough to make the second weekend.  I would be saddened by a first weekend loss, but I accept the vicissitudes of the tournament.    If MU loses, I hope it is not on a Friday in Lent so that I can drown my sorrows with Arby's.

I voted "major disappointment ", but I am easily disappointed. The problem is expectations were so high, returning 4 starters and the great showing in Maui.

I picked "it would suck" but I would separate my disappointment from drawing any conclusions about Shaka.

I don't think there is any such thing as a "forever" coach, and Shaka's record so far shouldn't even be drawing rumblings of dissatisfaction, except maybe from people whose expectations are extremely unrealistic.

If I could write my own brief response it would be "Losing the first weekend would be a significant disappointment, but I recognize that the tournament is something of a crapshoot".

I am in the apparent minority that would rather have a solid season with an NCAA seed of at least 4 combined with a second round exit than a season spent on or around the bubble and an advance to the second weekend but no further.

I wouldn't trade 5 or 6 regular season wins for one extra win in the NCAA tournament that extends the season for 5 days.

In 14 years as a head coach, Shaka has made it to the Sweet 16 once. That was his Final 4 team.

Last season, three Big East teams made the Sweet 16, two the Elite 8.  Its Go Time

If Shaka fails to make the second weekend, it's very likely Willie will call him and/or his players dung or refer to genitalia or other orifices to describe them.

He will also likely give Shaka a nickname from which he will never recover from leading him to take the Michigan job and Marquette will hire Brian Wardle

I agree with Dr. B, Its Go Time. I loved the fact that Shaka did not have a great March record at Texas because I believed it was something he needed to correct to improve his resume. He needs to get to the S16 much more than I want them to get there and I like that.

That said, this is far from a disclaimer, but how Shaka runs a program and the kids he has brought to MU has really impressed me. I want tournament success as much as anyone on here and I hope that happens this year. If not, I will take pride in what the program represents and how it is run. If he they get tournament success, I think it will be all the more reason to celebrate the program.

Black - I agree completely.

Shaka's a great coach, but other than the one year at VCU has failed badly in the NCAAT at both TX and MU.  He's what ? 1 and 6 ?

If they can't get to S16 and beyond this year .... Then when would it ever happen?

Its everything to me and it should be everything to everyone else. Whether for better or worse teams success in March is all a program is measured on. Yes, last years titles were nice but lets be real they were overshadowed by a second round loss.

This is the season that we have been waiting for since Shaka got here. We said year 3 or 4 would be the measuring stick. He got Marquette ahead of program last season however if we get upset again before the sweet 16 imo its a failed season with who we had coming back. This would mean we would be upset by a lower seed two years in a row. Whether we get a 2 or 3 seed both of those are expected to reach the Sweet 16.

Maybe its not fair that fans think this way but if we bow out in the 2nd round again this year to me this season while fun is nothing more than what the last 10 years has been.


I wouldn't be disappointed however in a sweet 16 loss and heres why. Once you reach the sweet 16 you are playing teams that are more than likely on par with you. If you are a 2/3 vs 3/2 you most likely share the same resume maybe 1 loss so the seeds are pretty interchangeable. If we were a 2 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to a 11 seed while still upsetting I wouldn't call the season a failure.

Quote from: Goose on February 20, 2024, 07:40:20 AM
I agree with Dr. B, Its Go Time. I loved the fact that Shaka did not have a great March record at Texas because I believed it was something he needed to correct to improve his resume. He needs to get to the S16 much more than I want them to get there and I like that.

That said, this is far from a disclaimer, but how Shaka runs a program and the kids he has brought to MU has really impressed me. I want tournament success as much as anyone on here and I hope that happens this year. If not, I will take pride in what the program represents and how it is run. If he they get tournament success, I think it will be all the more reason to celebrate the program.

Goose, I don't disagree with you...I want post season wins NOW. I liked Wojo. I thought he recruited good guys that represented MU at a high level, and I feel Woj saved us from a train wreck that could have resulted after Buzz' departure. But, Wojo could not win consistently, didn't properly utilize the talent he recruited and, well, we all know the result. Shaka? So far...great!! But...it's definitely WIN time. We lose in rd 2?... with 2 pro's in the starting 5 (Scoop consensus opinion), don't even mention it!! Let's gooooooo!

Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 20, 2024, 07:46:28 AM
Its everything to me and it should be everything to everyone else. Whether for better or worse teams success in March is all a program is measured on. Yes, last years titles were nice but lets be real they were overshadowed by a second round loss.

This is the season that we have been waiting for since Shaka got here. We said year 3 or 4 would be the measuring stick. He got Marquette ahead of program last season however if we get upset again before the sweet 16 imo its a failed season with who we had coming back. This would mean we would be upset by a lower seed two years in a row. Whether we get a 2 or 3 seed both of those are expected to reach the Sweet 16.

Maybe its not fair that fans think this way but if we bow out in the 2nd round again this year to me this season while fun is nothing more than what the last 10 years has been.


I wouldn't be disappointed however in a sweet 16 loss and heres why. Once you reach the sweet 16 you are playing teams that are more than likely on par with you. If you are a 2/3 vs 3/2 you most likely share the same resume maybe 1 loss so the seeds are pretty interchangeable. If we were a 2 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to a 11 seed while still upsetting I wouldn't call the season a failure.

solid 👍

Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 20, 2024, 07:46:28 AM
Its everything to me and it should be everything to everyone else. Whether for better or worse teams success in March is all a program is measured on. Yes, last years titles were nice but lets be real they were overshadowed by a second round loss.

This is the season that we have been waiting for since Shaka got here. We said year 3 or 4 would be the measuring stick. He got Marquette ahead of program last season however if we get upset again before the sweet 16 imo its a failed season with who we had coming back. This would mean we would be upset by a lower seed two years in a row. Whether we get a 2 or 3 seed both of those are expected to reach the Sweet 16.

Maybe its not fair that fans think this way but if we bow out in the 2nd round again this year to me this season while fun is nothing more than what the last 10 years has been.

I wouldn't be disappointed however in a sweet 16 loss and heres why. Once you reach the sweet 16 you are playing teams that are more than likely on par with you. If you are a 2/3 vs 3/2 you most likely share the same resume maybe 1 loss so the seeds are pretty interchangeable. If we were a 2 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to a 11 seed while still upsetting I wouldn't call the season a failure.

I pretty much agree with this except for the 2nd round loss last year overshadowing the regular season and BET titles. Those were awesome, and lift last year way above the ten years prior.

But not making the S16 this year would be an enormous disappointment.

More important than it should be.

Advancing far in the tournament requires that a team play well, they avoid unconscious shooters, and that the ball bounces the right way. IMO, the key to advancing is making the tournament consistently. Do that and eventually you break through.

Not sure any of the options really sum where I'm at.

If 2nd weekend is the ultimate destination, I'll be disappointed. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if this season wins with anything other than a win on Shaka's birthday. When we went to the Final Four in 2003, I was a junior and thought it heralded a new era where we would be one of the teams regularly at the top of the sport. Dameon Mason would be the next Wade, Crean would unearth more diamonds in the rough, yada yada yada and we all know what happened. Since then, we've had a couple teams capable of that deep run, but it just feels like we've missed so many time. 2009 we get the James injury, 2014 Blue and McKay leave us and we miss the dance, 2020 the Hausers leave, last year Kolek gets injured 10 minutes into the Vermont game, you all know the history.

The old heads still talk about 1977 and here we are 5 decades later. This team could do things that we are talking about in 5 decades, but we all know how fickle March is. It isn't often you have two future NBA seniors at the two most important positions. It isn't often you return this much and have a team that has shown they can be this good on both ends of the floor. And no matter how this year ends, the odds that we'll be right back here in a year or two or five are pretty slim, simply because it's really hard for anyone outside of a few programs nationally to do that consistently.

I won't be out no matter what happens, but if we lose a game between St. Patty's Day and Shaka's birthday, it will unquestionably be one of the most crushing losses of my life. It will likely leave me with a what if feeling for the rest of my life, the same feeling I get when I think back to James getting hurt, when I think back to Syracuse beating us in 2013, and when I think back to last year when the entire left side of the bracket fractured, but because the same happened to Tyler's hand we couldn't take advantage.

Ultimately, the second weekend doesn't matter at all to me. There's one game that matters, and that's April 8. Anything other than winning that game for me will be pretty much the same result.

Quote from: Mu8891 on February 20, 2024, 07:44:02 AM
Black - I agree completely.

Shaka's a great coach, but other than the one year at VCU has failed badly in the NCAAT at both TX and MU.  He's what ? 1 and 6 ?

If they can't get to S16 and beyond this year .... Then when would it ever happen?

You are correct.  In Shaka's last seven NCAA Tournament appearances, going back to his last two years at VCU, he lost in the first round six consecutive years, including MU's blowout loss by 30 to UNC. The lone first round win was last year, then the loss as a two seed to MSU.  Not a very good ten year pedigree, but maybe this year he can advance to another round.  I certainly hope so because next year could be a middle of the pack year.

I am sure MU is pleased with the way Shaka runs the program and quality of the players brought in.  Harvard, Merrimack, Drexel and others all have quality representative players, but at a major basketball school like MU and the resources provided to a coach, the goal is to advance and have a chance at a national title.  Let's hope the team gets on another roll going in the next few weeks and Shaka gets to an Elite 8 position.

For now we're back in the headlines and competing for conference titles. For a very long time that was what Creighton was viewed as under McDermott. Eventually they broke through and have seen some march success.

March matters and I want us to at least be Xavier pre Travis Steele where regardless of coach they're always in the second weekend but I'm happy with Shaka and the direction. It'd take like 4more first weekend flame outs as a protected seed before I started to get a bit antsy.

I agree that it is go time.  You don't get an experienced/talented roster like this very often.  It needs to be built over 2-3 years at a place like MU.  So a second weekend appearance is vital this year for proof of concept (development over portal).  Would be very disappointed not making it to the second weekend.  And at least a hell of an effort in the sweet sixteen and not an NC or UConn esque blow out. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on February 20, 2024, 08:08:57 AM
Not sure any of the options really sum where I'm at.

If 2nd weekend is the ultimate destination, I'll be disappointed. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if this season wins with anything other than a win on Shaka's birthday. When we went to the Final Four in 2003, I was a junior and thought it heralded a new era where we would be one of the teams regularly at the top of the sport. Dameon Mason would be the next Wade, Crean would unearth more diamonds in the rough, yada yada yada and we all know what happened. Since then, we've had a couple teams capable of that deep run, but it just feels like we've missed so many time. 2009 we get the James injury, 2014 Blue and McKay leave us and we miss the dance, 2020 the Hausers leave, last year Kolek gets injured 10 minutes into the Vermont game, you all know the history.

The old heads still talk about 1977 and here we are 5 decades later. This team could do things that we are talking about in 5 decades, but we all know how fickle March is. It isn't often you have two future NBA seniors at the two most important positions. It isn't often you return this much and have a team that has shown they can be this good on both ends of the floor. And no matter how this year ends, the odds that we'll be right back here in a year or two or five are pretty slim, simply because it's really hard for anyone outside of a few programs nationally to do that consistently.

I won't be out no matter what happens, but if we lose a game between St. Patty's Day and Shaka's birthday, it will unquestionably be one of the most crushing losses of my life. It will likely leave me with a what if feeling for the rest of my life, the same feeling I get when I think back to James getting hurt, when I think back to Syracuse beating us in 2013, and when I think back to last year when the entire left side of the bracket fractured, but because the same happened to Tyler's hand we couldn't take advantage.

Ultimately, the second weekend doesn't matter at all to me. There's one game that matters, and that's April 8. Anything other than winning that game for me will be pretty much the same result.

I have only went into a regular season for one of my teams thinking "title or bust." One was the '96 Packers, which was great, and the other was the '11 Packers, which was hugely disappointing.

If there was one thing that I learned from the latter of these two, it was that I need to enjoy the ride more as a sports fan. So I never really go into seasons thinking a championship is the only way I can be fulfilled. Why would I set myself for disappointment?

And that's why I never got hung up on the blowout loss to Kansas in '03. The journey to get there was one I will never forget.

So I will be happy with Sweet 16, overjoyed with Final Four, and ecstatic with a championship.

Quote from: brewcity77 on February 20, 2024, 08:08:57 AM
Not sure any of the options really sum where I'm at.

If 2nd weekend is the ultimate destination, I'll be disappointed. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if this season wins with anything other than a win on Shaka's birthday. When we went to the Final Four in 2003, I was a junior and thought it heralded a new era where we would be one of the teams regularly at the top of the sport. Dameon Mason would be the next Wade, Crean would unearth more diamonds in the rough, yada yada yada and we all know what happened. Since then, we've had a couple teams capable of that deep run, but it just feels like we've missed so many time. 2009 we get the James injury, 2014 Blue and McKay leave us and we miss the dance, 2020 the Hausers leave, last year Kolek gets injured 10 minutes into the Vermont game, you all know the history.

The old heads still talk about 1977 and here we are 5 decades later. This team could do things that we are talking about in 5 decades, but we all know how fickle March is. It isn't often you have two future NBA seniors at the two most important positions. It isn't often you return this much and have a team that has shown they can be this good on both ends of the floor. And no matter how this year ends, the odds that we'll be right back here in a year or two or five are pretty slim, simply because it's really hard for anyone outside of a few programs nationally to do that consistently.

I won't be out no matter what happens, but if we lose a game between St. Patty's Day and Shaka's birthday, it will unquestionably be one of the most crushing losses of my life. It will likely leave me with a what if feeling for the rest of my life, the same feeling I get when I think back to James getting hurt, when I think back to Syracuse beating us in 2013, and when I think back to last year when the entire left side of the bracket fractured, but because the same happened to Tyler's hand we couldn't take advantage.

Ultimately, the second weekend doesn't matter at all to me. There's one game that matters, and that's April 8. Anything other than winning that game for me will be pretty much the same result.

I'm a bit surprised Brew given your normally measured takes. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't be thrilled with a FF run this year? This is a very good team - but arguably last year's team was as good and we certainly aren't a UCONN (or even Purdue or UH). In my book, a FF would be fantastic - a title of course would be amazing beyond words.

(I didn't realize we were in the same class) but the 2003 run my Junior year was awesome - yes losing to KU absolutely sucked - but the whole season was amazing. While the 7 hour bus ride back from Minneapolis was a lot more fun than the 15 hour ride back from New Orleans, the difference between going to the FF and going home after Pittsburg was enormous. But going to MSP would still have been a lot better than not making it past Indy.

I too want success beyond the S16 this year - but if we get at least there we are making progress (and making it back to a place we haven't been in a decade). I get the NCAA is a crapshoot - but I want it to be a crapshoot like it is (mostly) for Duke or Kentucky or Kansas - the crapshoot is whether you make the S16 or the title game. I want second weekend to be our floor like it is (mostly) for those programs. Consistent, 2nd weekend+, tourney success is my metric for the program. But winning the title in any given year requires the stars to align - like hitting a hole in 1 - but putting all your shots within 10 feet ups the chance that one might eventually drop.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 20, 2024, 08:36:42 AM
For now we're back in the headlines and competing for conference titles. For a very long time that was what Creighton was viewed as under McDermott. Eventually they broke through and have seen some march success.

March matters and I want us to at least be Xavier pre Travis Steele where regardless of coach they're always in the second weekend but I'm happy with Shaka and the direction. It'd take like 4more first weekend flame outs as a protected seed before I started to get a bit antsy.

I appreciate that you put the metric out there (0-5) - but that's the counterfactual for the 60% "trust the process" folks - what's the magic number of flameouts? 

FWIW I really really really think we'll get it done this year. I can't image there is anything Tyler (and the rest) wants to do more than expunge the taste of MSU.

Let's just win the whole thing and put these conversations to bed.

Quote from: Goose on February 20, 2024, 08:55:17 AM
Let's just win the whole thing and put these conversations to bed.

But if we stop the scoop revenue stream will disappear and Topper's kids will go hungry!

I would love to make at least the 2nd weekend to silence the casuals who think March is all that matters.

And since Marquette doesn't have to worry about playing in UConn's region, the Final Four is very possible.

But I recognize the tournament is an unforgiving beast. Jay Wright had a 5 year stretch where Villanova was either a 1 or 2 seed.  Three times they lost in the 2nd round.  But those are pretty much forgotten because the other two years were National Champions.

The regular season is more forgiving. Losses to Butler and Seton Hall in conference play are just a blip because the team gets to keep playing.  In the tournament, the party's over.

Until Shaka makes deep tourney runs, 1st weekend exits will always be lamented for what could have been.  But we know this: Shaka can build a BE champ and teams that can earn 2/3 seeds.  We've seen elite offense last year.  This year we've seen very good to great defense.

All of the elements for longterm success are there.  Consistent recruiting and player development will lead to more bites at the apple.  Hopefully this March will be the first of many long tournament runs.  But even if this season ends in disappointment, the longterm outlook remains strong.

Quote from: 1SE on February 20, 2024, 08:54:43 AM
I appreciate that you put the metric out there (0-5) - but that's the counterfactual for the 60% "trust the process" folks - what's the magic number of flameouts? 

Well to me a flame out like last year or in 2019 hurts immediately a lot more than a flame out 2 years ago or 2017. The first two are painful but a couple years go by and the season gets remembered as a good whole season (see 4 seed in 96 for reference, yes people are stilll upset at Austin Croshare but it doesn't invalidate the whole year). So magic number of flame outs? Keep being a protected seed and it's going to be higher than if you mixed a rougher year in.

Quote from: 1SE on February 20, 2024, 08:54:43 AM
FWIW I really really really think we'll get it done this year. I can't image there is anything Tyler (and the rest) wants to do more than expunge the taste of MSU.

Agreed. It'd take wheels coming off or running into someone else having a Ja Morant style game to stop them this year.


Ultimately I'd take 4 more season like last year over consistently reliving 2011 any day of the week before I'd consider exchanging the two.

When people say the second weekend, do they mean the Sweet 16 or the elite 8? Second weekend would imply we won our sweet 16 game.

Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 20, 2024, 09:14:11 AM
When people say the second weekend, do they mean the Sweet 16 or the elite 8? Second weekend would imply we won our sweet 16 game.

No it doesnt. "Making the second weekend" means you made it to at least the Sweet 16. If you lose in the Sweet 16, you still made the second weekend

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 20, 2024, 07:00:47 AM
In 14 years as a head coach, Shaka has made it to the Sweet 16 once. That was his Final 4 team.

Last season, three Big East teams made the Sweet 16, two the Elite 8.  Its Go Time

If it doesn't happen with this group, this year, I don't know when it will.

That said... roster construction has to change to get MU to the point where we don't fret about second round games. Have to start valuing shooting more and just get bigger across the board. MU has been stuffed in a locker too many times this season.

I'll need to review team GPA before making a decision

In the general case, it doesn't mean much to me in any specific year. Having a good team for 5 months and consistently giving yourself a chance to make a run is more valuable to me as I think eventually the odds favor breaking through to the second weekend here and there.

Though for this specific year, it's very important to make a deep run and anything less would be seen as a failure for this group.

Once MU has had some second weekend success, I'll go back to putting more weight on being a regularly contending team over the course of the season rather than a single elimination crapshoot tournament. Important tournament coming up for the program in a month.

Quote from: CountryRoads on February 20, 2024, 09:34:22 AM
In the general case, it doesn't mean much to me in any specific year. Having a good team for 5 months and consistently giving yourself a chance to make a run is more valuable to me as I think eventually the odds favor breaking through to the second weekend here and there.

Though for this specific year, it's very important to make a deep run and anything less would be seen as a failure for this group.

Once MU has had some second weekend success, I'll go back to putting more weight on being a regularly contending team over the course of the season rather than a single elimination crapshoot tournament. Important tournament coming up for the program in a month.

I agree with what you are saying however, if not this year its probably going to be a few years. Shaka has shown the inability to play freshman or recruit those who can come in right away. If we lose the players everyone is thinking we are going to lose next year we might be a bubble team at best.

Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on February 20, 2024, 09:04:17 AM
I would love to make at least the 2nd weekend to silence the casuals who think March is all that matters.

And since Marquette doesn't have to worry about playing in UConn's region, the Final Four is very possible.

But I recognize the tournament is an unforgiving beast. Jay Wright had a 5 year stretch where Villanova was either a 1 or 2 seed.  Three times they lost in the 2nd round.  But those are pretty much forgotten because the other two years were National Champions.

The regular season is more forgiving. Losses to Butler and Seton Hall in conference play are just a blip because the team gets to keep playing.  In the tournament, the party's over.

Until Shaka makes deep tourney runs, 1st weekend exits will always be lamented for what could have been.  But we know this: Shaka can build a BE champ and teams that can earn 2/3 seeds.  We've seen elite offense last year.  This year we've seen very good to great defense.

All of the elements for longterm success are there.  Consistent recruiting and player development will lead to more bites at the apple.  Hopefully this March will be the first of many long tournament runs.  But even if this season ends in disappointment, the longterm outlook remains strong.

This right here.  Yes, the Shaka only has 1 Sweet 16 in his 14 years as a Head Coach is an underwhelming stat for sure, but eventually greatness will overcome some bad luck/performances in the NCAA tournament.  Shaka is brilliant and he will get us to second weekends and beyond consistently, barring any major shift in NIL/pay for play dynamics.

I'll be very disappointed if we don't make the 2nd weekend this year, and will say disappointed if we don't make the Elite 8.  But, even if we don't make the Sweet 16 it won't diminish my belief that Shaka is a star.

I do think that the accelerated success MU has had under Shaka has raised the bar very high for what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" as far as March success.  Year 1 nobody in their right mind felt MU could be an NCAA team, and we were - and then got matchup up against National Runner Up UNC in the first round.  Last year we get Kolek injured and a second round draw with Michigan State, who I believe Izzo is something like 24-6 in Round of 32 games.  Not an easy draw.

Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 20, 2024, 09:37:59 AM
I agree with what you are saying however, if not this year its probably going to be a few years. Shaka has shown the inability to play freshman or recruit those who can come in right away. If we lose the players everyone is thinking we are going to lose next year we might be a bubble team at best.

I'd disagree with this - we haven't had enough time to really judge this.  Last year Sean, Chase and Ben all added solid value to the team.  This year, the team is deeper and to expect Tre or Zaide to leapfrog Sean or Chase isn't exactly to be expected.  Amadou has a ton of potential.  I'll give you that Ellis and Itjere were misses, however.

Shaka also identified and got Morsell, Kolek and O-Max for Year 1.  Sean, Chase, Tre, Zaide and next year Demarious Owens are all bigger/more physical guards than Kam/Stevie were.  Stevie of course is a true warrior and plays well above his weight, but the general point is it take a little time for the roster to fully shift to Shaka's vision of a Big East caliber talent.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on February 20, 2024, 09:46:47 AM
  Sean, Chase, Tre, Zaide and next year Demarious Owens are all bigger/more physical guards than Kam/Stevie were. 

He's smaller than Markus and Rowsey who were referred to as midgets. I agree with the broader point but Sean has no business on that list of "bigger guards" I guess he's built thicker but he's a small guy in stature.

Can't get to the FF without winning past da first and second weekends, aina?

The correct answer is somewhere between the second and third option.
Not making it to the second weekend with this group would be a massive gut punch that no "tourney is a crapshoot" excuse-making can justify.
If Shaka can't get his best team, probably ever, past a likely 7 or 10 seed (or worse, a 15 seed), it's a terrible look. It's not www.fireshaka.com time, nor does his seat heat up very much, but it would lead a reasonable person to wonder whether he's a one-hit wonder when it comes to tourney success, and that hit was more than a decade ago.

I think MUs chances of getting past the first weekend is good.
However, if MU's opposing team has an Edey or sleeping superstar like Stephen Curry or Ja Morant, could be over quickly.

After DePaul, it is a tough final part of conference schedule. 
Will learn more about this team.
I think Marquette will be battle ready for the National Tournament.

Quote from: NCMUFan on February 20, 2024, 10:21:55 AM
After DePaul, it is a tough final part of conference schedule. 
Will learn more about this team.
I think Marquette will be battle ready for the National Tournament.

UConn and @Creighton are very tough. Two against Xavier and home vs a Hopkins-less Providence are very winnable games.
Anything less than 4-2 down the stretch would be disappointing.

Quote from: 1SE on February 20, 2024, 08:54:43 AM
I appreciate that you put the metric out there (0-5) - but that's the counterfactual for the 60% "trust the process" folks - what's the magic number of flameouts? 

FWIW I really really really think we'll get it done this year. I can't image there is anything Tyler (and the rest) wants to do more than expunge the taste of MSU.

By the standards set by some here Al McGuire wouldn't have been around long enough to reach the Final Four in 1974. He has his share of flameouts in an era with much less parity before getting to one. In those days they usually only had to win a gimme over a MAC or OVC team to get into the round of 16. But they took several losses against Kentucky and Big 10 teams (some that were significant underdogs) before breaking through.

Quote from: 1SE on February 20, 2024, 08:54:43 AM
I appreciate that you put the metric out there (0-5) - but that's the counterfactual for the 60% "trust the process" folks - what's the magic number of flameouts? 

FWIW I really really really think we'll get it done this year. I can't image there is anything Tyler (and the rest) wants to do more than expunge the taste of MSU.

There really isn't a magical number of flameouts. As long as the team is competitive, regularly makes the tournament, and sells a lot of tickets, Marquette will keep Shaka around for as long as he wants.

Quote from: wisblue on February 20, 2024, 10:42:26 AM
By the standards set by some here Al McGuire wouldn't have been around long enough to reach the Final Four in 1974. He has his share of flameouts in an era with much less parity before getting to one. In those days they usually only had to win a gimme over a MAC or OVC team to get into the round of 16. But they took several losses against Kentucky and Big 10 teams before breaking through.

The Sweet 16 wasn't a thing until the tournament expanded.  Maybe you can make an argument it started to matter after they expanded to 32 teams in '74.

Being an independent didn't hurt, either

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 10:46:45 AM

There really isn't a magical number of flameouts. As long as the team is competitive, regularly makes the tournament, and sells a lot of tickets, Marquette will keep Shaka around for as long as he wants.

As they should.  If you're consistently a 7-10 seed and never advancing to the second weekend, then maybe it's a problem.

But if you're consistently a top 10 team and a 2-3 seed, you keep rolling with that, even if you have disappointing March results.  Just keep taking bites at the apple and eventually you'll break through.  Jay Wright couldn't win in March until he could.  Tony Bennett same story.  Scott Drew same story (although he was at a historically difficult school to win at, unlike the other 2).

Shaka will break through if he keeps having teams like the last 2 years.  He's proven he can exceed lower expectations, and meet higher expectations.

I will be disappointed if we don't get to the Final Four ... just as I was last year. And when we get to the Final Four, I'll be disappointed if we don't win the title.

Like all fans, I always want more.

I'm also realistic and I understand the nature of the NCAA Tournament. I won't like a first-weekend exit (or a second-weekend exit, for that matter).  I'll be grumpy for a day or 3. But as is the case with most here (I hope), my happiness in life isn't defined by what my alma mater's basketball team does. I'll get over it, I'll have a great summer with my family and friends, and I'll be psyched for next season to begin.

National title or bust

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 20, 2024, 11:12:11 AM
National title or bust

Rico gets it.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 20, 2024, 07:00:47 AM
In 14 years as a head coach, Shaka has made it to the Sweet 16 once. That was his Final 4 team.

Last season, three Big East teams made the Sweet 16, two the Elite 8.  Its Go Time

Exactly. Shaka, more than anyone, knows that this is the year to get that monkey off his back.

He doesn't need the extra pressure, but rest assured he knows this.
I'm counting on TyKo/Oso/ and maybe even Kam to give not only themselves and their teammates, the entire fanbase, and especially their Coach this gift.

It would be a great parting gift for all that Shaka has helped give them

We have short memories and get greedy quickly. Shaka inherited a program that, in the seven years prior to his arrival, had two winning seasons in conference, two NCAA tournament bids, no NCAA wins, no BE titles, and no BE tournament titles. In his three seasons at MU, Shaka will have three winning conference seasons, both a BE conference title and a BE tournament title, three NCAA bids, and an NCAA tournament win. Makes complete sense that fans will start to have doubts about Shaka if he doesn't make it to the Elite 8 this year, but we had fans still wanting to hang on to Wojo.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 20, 2024, 07:07:54 AM
If Shaka fails to make the second weekend, it's very likely Willie will call him and/or his players dung or refer to genitalia or other orifices to describe them.

He will also likely give Shaka a nickname from which he will never recover from leading him to take the Michigan job and Marquette will hire Brian Wardle

I'm ready for Wardle to come home and get rid of all the dung

Quote from: Jay Bee on February 20, 2024, 09:32:24 AM
I'll need to review team GPA before making a decision

Well Kolek can't read

Quote from: 1SE on February 20, 2024, 08:50:44 AMI'm a bit surprised Brew given your normally measured takes. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't be thrilled with a FF run this year? This is a very good team - but arguably last year's team was as good and we certainly aren't a UCONN (or even Purdue or UH). In my book, a FF would be fantastic - a title of course would be amazing beyond words.

I want a title before I shed this mortal coil. Considering how rare opportunities like this are, when these seasons come along, until we get one, I'm title or bust. Last year was all house money because while I thought we were good, we exceeded my expectations. Next year, with likely a lesser roster, I'll have lower expectations so S16 would probably blow me away. But any year we're in that NC mix (until we win one) I'm going to sadly be looking at that as the only success. Which sucks, because even when you're the best team in the country, winning a 6-game single-elimination tournament is incredibly unlikely.

Ultimately success is determined from post season accomplishments. Last season was fun but it will always be a "what if" for me. If TKO was healthy, we could've accomplished so much more.

This season is no different. It's a fun journey during the regular season, but losing during the first weekend would be a massive disappointment. I would even consider losing in the s16 a disappointment this year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on February 20, 2024, 11:59:42 AM
I want a title before I shed this mortal coil. Considering how rare opportunities like this are, when these seasons come along, until we get one, I'm title or bust. Last year was all house money because while I thought we were good, we exceeded my expectations. Next year, with likely a lesser roster, I'll have lower expectations so S16 would probably blow me away. But any year we're in that NC mix (until we win one) I'm going to sadly be looking at that as the only success. Which sucks, because even when you're the best team in the country, winning a 6-game single-elimination tournament is incredibly unlikely.

I guess I don't know what you mean by "I'm title or bust."

What will the consequences be from brewcity77 if we don't win it all this season?

I'm pretty sure you're not gonna stop being a Marquette basketball fan and you're not gonna call for Shaka's head. But a term like "title or bust" suggests something more than just being disappointed.

Such impatience.

While expectations are sky high this year, keep in mind that three years ago, we were a nobody program spinning toward the depths of irrelevancy. DePaul we weren't likely to be, but Loyola (sans Sister Jean), St. John's, Syracuse, Pitt or UCLA? Very possible.

I'm grateful for Shaka and where we're headed. But I'll remind anyone who will listen that even in the Coach McGuire days, we had a legacy of choking. The years 1969, 1971, 1973 and 1976 stand out as years that could have been... but weren't. The 1971-1972 and 1974-1975 seasons also were marred by losing a core part of our team (Jim Chones and Maurice Lucas, respectively), thus becoming mini-chokes.

Today's NCAA is a crapshoot. Much depends on seed and match-ups. If we draw something favorable, we could catch lightening in a bottle. But, if we're cold shooting and get a team like Wisconsin, keep the plane back to Milwaukee warm!

Quote from: MU82 on February 20, 2024, 12:18:50 PM
I guess I don't know what you mean by "I'm title or bust."

What will the consequences be from brewcity77 if we don't win it all this season?

I'm pretty sure you're not gonna stop being a Marquette basketball fan and you're not gonna call for Shaka's head. But a term like "title or bust" suggests something more than just being disappointed.

No consequences, but the thread is asking how important the second weekend is to me. For me, the only importance to the second weekend is you have to go there before you win the title. And ultimately, that's the only goal I have left for the program in my lifetime.

That doesn't mean I won't be able to look back fondly on a second weekend appearance after we eventually win a title, but any time we have the capability we do this year, there will be a permanent sting and feeling that the year was ultimately unfulfilled until we cut nets at the Final Four.

Quote from: dgies9156 on February 20, 2024, 01:03:24 PM
Such impatience.

While expectations are sky high this year, keep in mind that three years ago, we were a nobody program spinning toward the depths of irrelevancy. DePaul we weren't likely to be, but Loyola (sans Sister Jean), St. John's, Syracuse, Pitt or UCLA? Very possible.

I'm grateful for Shaka and where we're headed. But I'll remind anyone who will listen that even in the Coach McGuire days, we had a legacy of choking. The years 1969, 1971, 1973 and 1976 stand out as years that could have been... but weren't. The 1971-1972 and 1974-1975 seasons also were marred by losing a core part of our team (Jim Chones and Maurice Lucas, respectively), thus becoming mini-chokes.

Today's NCAA is a crapshoot. Much depends on seed and match-ups. If we draw something favorable, we could catch lightening in a bottle. But, if we're cold shooting and get a team like Wisconsin, keep the plane back to Milwaukee warm!

I was just going to post something similar.  1976 was a year we were absolutely loaded and ran into the undefeated Hoosiers.
Then in 1978 - again, loaded, defending champs - lose our opening game.

I'm still a die hard fan.  Imagine that.

Dgies, Wisconsin sucks.

Quote from: MU82 on February 20, 2024, 10:56:41 AM
I will be disappointed if we don't get to the Final Four ... just as I was last year. And when we get to the Final Four, I'll be disappointed if we don't win the title.

Like all fans, I always want more.

I'm also realistic and I understand the nature of the NCAA Tournament. I won't like a first-weekend exit (or a second-weekend exit, for that matter).  I'll be grumpy for a day or 3. But as is the case with most here (I hope), my happiness in life isn't defined by what my alma mater's basketball team does. I'll get over it, I'll have a great summer with my family and friends, and I'll be psyched for next season to begin.

Well said........the players will put it all out there......as will the staff.......sometimes you just don't play well.....or it's a bad matchup......or the other team shoots the lights out.....

Dominant teams don't typically worry about matchups........MU is not a dominant team. They can lose at anytime or they can make a deep run.

I never thought a Championship was likely with how this team was built......too small, not enough depth and don't shoot it well enough.

MU has got to out execute opponents......that is how they win......it's hard to do that for 6 games in a row.....

Agreed.  Good post.

Some good points MuMark.

Marquette isn't a dominant team and that's why opponents do matter.

One of the nice things about the next 6 games is that Shaka can work on making them a more dominant team by introducing some new wrinkles for the end of the season run.
The identity is set, but what happens when push comes to shove in an elimination game?

Pressure can either bust pipes or create diamonds.
I'd like to see one big wrinkle- now that the team has the bodies and is fairly healthy again.
More pressure, more havoc, more 1-3-1 press.
This is one of this Marquette squads biggest strengths- turning teams over and getting out on fast paced big runs. Breaking the opponents spirit.
If nothing else, it puts pressure on and tires the opponent, gives them less time to get in the half court and less energy to crash the O glass, especially if you are out and running.

Of course it can also tire our guys out, so need a heavier dose of the bench to do that. Get it going now, get guys comfortable and see how it goes, for those times where that unique identity becomes a necessity

Quote from: MU82 on February 20, 2024, 12:18:50 PMBut a term like "title or bust" suggests something more than just being disappointed.

It's more that I'm not going to be satisfied with the trappings along the way until we reach that destination. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the process, or eventually appreciate the lesser accomplishments, but I'm not going to come out of a S16 finish saying "great, they got that monkey off the back, now I'm happy". I've seen numerous S16s. I'd rather have it than not, but there's really only one thing that will leave me thinking "yes, the season was an unquestioned success."

For everyone who says teams are remembered for their March success, I'd argue that unless you  make a Final Four, nobody is really remembered for that.

Outside of Creighton (because it happened last year), can you name Big East teams that have lost in the Sweet 16/Elite 8 since the start of the New Big East?  Or even the previous version of the Big East?

I can't.  Maybe it's because very few Big East teams make the 2nd weekend without making it to the Final Four.  But while I may not be able to tell you the exact year, I typically can tell what programs were awesome throughout a full year or two or three year stretch even if they didn't make a deep NCAA Tournament run.

In 3 years, I bet very few Big East fans outside of Omaha will remember Creighton was in an Elite 8.  But I bet most Big East fans will remember Marquette was awesome in 2022-2023.

So I cant answer the poll because of the Shaka-clausees added.

I would be "Missing the 2nd weekend would be a major disappointment"  but I like Shaka and no issues with him.

So no answer for me.

This thread is getting borderline COLE.

Nothing this year would change my opinion about Shaka being the forever guy, but I'd be disappointed if we didn't make the second weekend. Barring a collapse we're going to be a 2 seed again. It's time to get to the second weekend.

But I also have complete faith that this staff will keep the team top 25 next year even losing Tyler and Oso, which is a really good place for your program to be.

Quote from: wadesworld on February 20, 2024, 02:07:19 PM
For everyone who says teams are remembered for their March success, I'd argue that unless you  make a Final Four, nobody is really remembered for that.

Outside of Creighton (because it happened last year), can you name Big East teams that have lost in the Sweet 16/Elite 8 since the start of the New Big East?  Or even the previous version of the Big East?

I can't.  Maybe it's because very few Big East teams make the 2nd weekend without making it to the Final Four.  But while I may not be able to tell you the exact year, I typically can tell what programs were awesome throughout a full year or two or three year stretch even if they didn't make a deep NCAA Tournament run.

In 3 years, I bet very few Big East fans outside of Omaha will remember Creighton was in an Elite 8.  But I bet most Big East fans will remember Marquette was awesome in 2022-2023.

Tournament moments and performances definitely resonate more than regular season success for the every day fan. A player like Marquis Nowell is a tournament player I'll never forget or dunk city from FGCU. Those examples are what casual fans remember, not finishing second with some great road performances in the regular season Big 12.

Why should I care what the "casual fan" thinks about Marquette? I get no satisfaction by some other fanbase remembering Marquette's performance during the regular season, the BET or the NCAA.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 02:28:10 PM
Why should I care what the "casual fan" thinks about Marquette? I get no satisfaction by some other fanbase remembering Marquette's performance during the regular season, the BET or the NCAA.

Stronger national perception from a wider audience improves our brand.

Quote from: wadesworld on February 20, 2024, 02:07:19 PM
For everyone who says teams are remembered for their March success, I'd argue that unless you  make a Final Four, nobody is really remembered for that.

Outside of Creighton (because it happened last year), can you name Big East teams that have lost in the Sweet 16/Elite 8 since the start of the New Big East?  Or even the previous version of the Big East?

I can't.  Maybe it's because very few Big East teams make the 2nd weekend without making it to the Final Four.  But while I may not be able to tell you the exact year, I typically can tell what programs were awesome throughout a full year or two or three year stretch even if they didn't make a deep NCAA Tournament run.

In 3 years, I bet very few Big East fans outside of Omaha will remember Creighton was in an Elite 8.  But I bet most Big East fans will remember Marquette was awesome in 2022-2023.

Agree with paragraph one.

I know X made an elite 8 potentially an additional sweet 16. butler at least one sweet 16. Providence made a sweet 16 as well. I doubt if we polled 99% of fans they have that knowledge and if it weren't for seemingly everybody in the NBE except nova flaming out for so long I doubt I'd remember all that.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 20, 2024, 02:10:03 PM
This thread is getting borderline COLE.

Brother Pakuni:

You neglect to see the difference between what we expect to see and how we view our beloved Warriors.

Objectively, I think our ceiling is Final Four, though it would take a very good seeding/draw to get there. I can see us potentially making the championship but I think beating Houston, Purdue or UConn will be extremely tough. But, as I noted above, if we get the wrong team or someone gets extraordinarily hot, we could be toast. Likewise, maybe Purdue and UConn lay an egg along the way and we end up with a very nice path to a Natty!

In 1973, we were a heck of a better team than Indiana. The only notable on their team was Quinn Buckner. Our team had four future NBAers. We were ranked fifth in the nation. Indiana barely cracked the Top 10. Guess who won? Guess who was REALLY disappointed!

We won't even talk about 1978.

Crap happens. We're not COLE, we're realists. As I said, Coach Shaka is doing a great job and I'm all-in on him. I'm excited but have been down the "Meet me in St Louis" path (MU 1978) one time too many!

Quote from: MochaJoe on February 20, 2024, 02:25:52 PM
Tournament moments and performances definitely resonate more than regular season success for the every day fan. A player like Marquis Nowell is a tournament player I'll never forget or dunk city from FGCU. Those examples are what casual fans remember, not finishing second with some great road performances in the regular season Big 12.

Sure.  The little guys for the programs that almost never have success you remember for their March performances.  But we are almost certainly never going to be a 15 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 02:28:10 PM
Why should I care what the "casual fan" thinks about Marquette? I get no satisfaction by some other fanbase remembering Marquette's performance during the regular season, the BET or the NCAA.

You can care about whatever you want to.  But the idea that Marquette's 2011 season was more enjoyable because they won an extra NCAA Tournament game than last year is wild.

Quote from: wadesworld on February 20, 2024, 02:38:15 PM
Sure.  The little guys for the programs that almost never have success you remember for their March performances.  But we are almost certainly never going to be a 15 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

You can care about whatever you want to.  But the idea that Marquette's 2011 season was more enjoyable because they won an extra NCAA Tournament game than last year is wild.

Those are two examples but there are many more from successful larger programs.

To your response to semantics - for me, it's a toss up. The NCAA tournament is the post season and post season success is weighted much more heavily in my mind. Winning single elimination games to ultimately compete for a championship trumps and sort of accomplishments (or lack there of) during the regular season.

Can I have a different poll result of. Extremely disappointed, but not willing to say Shaka might not be the guy?

Quote from: MochaJoe on February 20, 2024, 02:33:13 PM
Stronger national perception from a wider audience improves our brand.

Why do I care about that?  Seriously, our brand is fine. I don't care one bit what Joe Schmoe from Podunk, Nebraska thinks about our brand.

Quote from: wadesworld on February 20, 2024, 02:38:15 PM
You can care about whatever you want to.  But the idea that Marquette's 2011 season was more enjoyable because they won an extra NCAA Tournament game than last year is wild.

I agree with you completely. Last year was great!

Quote from: wadesworld on February 20, 2024, 02:38:15 PM
You can care about whatever you want to.  But the idea that Marquette's 2011 season was more enjoyable because they won an extra NCAA Tournament game than last year is wild.

I do think it's debatable that 2012 or 2013 were more enjoyable than last year due to the extra game and two games respectively but 2011 is the prime example of why I'd much much rather have consistently great regular seasons and it'd take quite some time before I got antsy for march success.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 02:42:39 PM
Why do I care about that?  Seriously, our brand is fine. I don't care one bit what Joe Schmoe from Podunk, Nebraska thinks about our brand.

Winning consistently in March improves the perception of the basketball team and the university. How many people knew who/what/where a Gonzaga is before their sustained NCAA tournament success?

If lots of Joe Schmoe's care, that helps our cherished schools long term viability.

Quote from: dgies9156 on February 20, 2024, 02:36:22 PM
Brother Pakuni:

You neglect to see the difference between what we expect to see and how we view our beloved Warriors.

Objectively, I think our ceiling is Final Four, though it would take a very good seeding/draw to get there. I can see us potentially making the championship but I think beating Houston, Purdue or UConn will be extremely tough. But, as I noted above, if we get the wrong team or someone gets extraordinarily hot, we could be toast. Likewise, maybe Purdue and UConn lay an egg along the way and we end up with a very nice path to a Natty!

In 1973, we were a heck of a better team than Indiana. The only notable on their team was Quinn Buckner. Our team had four future NBAers. We were ranked fifth in the nation. Indiana barely cracked the Top 10. Guess who won? Guess who was REALLY disappointed!

We won't even talk about 1978.

Crap happens. We're not COLE, we're realists. As I said, Coach Shaka is doing a great job and I'm all-in on him. I'm excited but have been down the "Meet me in St Louis" path (MU 1978) one time too many!

Brother dgies,

If MU, as expected, enters the tournament again as a top 10 team (with a 2/3 seed) and again doesn't advance to the second weekend, it's a failure. It's not a luck of the draw/bad matchup/cold shooting situation. There shouldn't be 7/10 seed in this field that's a matchup nightmare for this Marquette squad or one that requires a hot shooting night to defeat. MU will be the much better team, and when the much better team loses, it's a failure.

The 1973 season you cite isn't at all comparable. If MU loses in the tourney to a "barely" top 10 team, that's understandable. Losing to a team ranked outside the top 25 - likely our first two round opponents - is not.

1978 was a failure.

Nobody says Shaka should be fired or even on the hot seat with an early exit. But it's not "crap happens" either.

I have a nagging feeling that this might be the peak under Shaka. 

I think Kolek and Oso are the perfect players in his system.  Whenever Kolek sits against a good team we seem to play poorly, unless Kam goes on a roll.  That's why I don't get the optimism for next year if we don't pick up a PG and/or another big who can play big minutes effectively.  Other than transfers year 1, I have been underwhelmed by the players Shaka has brought in so far.  In another thread the general consensus seemed to be that we were going to dip to a 7-10 seed next season.  I have to admit my thoughts were that I don't see how the returning group of players is an NCAA tournament team at all.

I have enjoyed greatly Shaka's tenure thus far, because the brand of basketball we play is a joy to watch and we have been very successful playing it.  Just not confident we will sustain it.  I remember having the same feeling under Wojo during Henry Ellenson's season that we weren't going to be a team that could win a couple NCAA games for a while.  But that feeling changed when he picked up Sam and Markus, and although that fizzled out, at least there was hope.

All of the above is why I will be really disappointed if we don't make it through the first weekend this year, because I think this will be our best chance for a while.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 20, 2024, 03:06:26 PM
I have a nagging feeling that this might be the peak under Shaka. 

I think Kolek and Oso are the perfect players in his system.  Whenever Kolek sits against a good team we seem to play poorly, unless Kam goes on a roll.  That's why I don't get the optimism for next year if we don't pick up a PG and/or another big who can play big minutes effectively.  Other than transfers year 1, I have been underwhelmed by the players Shaka has brought in so far.  In another thread the general consensus seemed to be that we were going to dip to a 7-10 seed next season.  I have to admit my thoughts were that I don't see how the returning group of players is an NCAA tournament team at all.

I have enjoyed greatly Shaka's tenure thus far, because the brand of basketball we play is a joy to watch and we have been very successful playing it.  Just not confident we will sustain it.  I remember having the same feeling under Wojo during Henry Ellenson's season that we weren't going to be a team that could win a couple NCAA games for a while.  But that feeling changed when he picked up Sam and Markus, and although that fizzled out, at least there was hope.

All of the above is why I will be really disappointed if we don't make it through the first weekend this year, because I think this will be our best chance for a while.

I think you're overestimating his dedication to one particular system. I think without TK he'll have a slightly different system. The emphasis on 3s and paint will stay the same but how they achieve that will be different.

Year one the offense looked different than the last two years.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 20, 2024, 03:06:26 PM
I have a nagging feeling that this might be the peak under Shaka. 

I think Kolek and Oso are the perfect players in his system.  Whenever Kolek sits against a good team we seem to play poorly, unless Kam goes on a roll.  That's why I don't get the optimism for next year if we don't pick up a PG and/or another big who can play big minutes effectively.  Other than transfers year 1, I have been underwhelmed by the players Shaka has brought in so far.  In another thread the general consensus seemed to be that we were going to dip to a 7-10 seed next season.  I have to admit my thoughts were that I don't see how the returning group of players is an NCAA tournament team at all.

I have enjoyed greatly Shaka's tenure thus far, because the brand of basketball we play is a joy to watch and we have been very successful playing it.  Just not confident we will sustain it.  I remember having the same feeling under Wojo during Henry Ellenson's season that we weren't going to be a team that could win a couple NCAA games for a while.  But that feeling changed when he picked up Sam and Markus, and although that fizzled out, at least there was hope.

All of the above is why I will be really disappointed if we don't make it through the first weekend this year, because I think this will be our best chance for a while.

It is a failure if we do not advance to the 2nd weekend. We can't expect to just have a 2 or 3 seed every year - so we need to make the most of the good years and take advantage of the opportunity. I do not 100% agree with the "peak under Shaka" comment.  We do not know what our team is going to be like next year and UConn and Creighton are losing a ton after this season.  Additionally, the players that are playing ball for 6 years because of the free covid year ends next year. So the 2025-2026 season will be the first time in quite sometime where you wont have 24-25 year old's playing basketball.

Quote from: MochaJoe on February 20, 2024, 02:50:20 PM
Winning consistently in March improves the perception of the basketball team and the university. How many people knew who/what/where a Gonzaga is before their sustained NCAA tournament success?

If lots of Joe Schmoe's care, that helps our cherished schools long term viability.

So you think there is THAT significant enough difference in a Sweet 16 run versus regular season success  that it impacts the "schools (sic) long term viability?" That's a stretch.

Shaka's first year was expected to be bubbly at the very best.  We were safely in the field.  Second year we were supposed to be nowhere close to the Tournament.  We were the best team in the Big East, a Big East that provided the National Champion.  This year he was supposed to have a Final Four contender, and that's what we are.

Will this be Shaka's peak?  I mean, probably?  How many MU teams have been ranked in the top 10 for a huge majority of the season, especially coming off a BE regular season and Tourney title?  Prior to Shaka, I believe our highest seed ever was a 3 seed.  We're probably going to be back to back 2 seeds.

But there is nothing in Shaka's career that suggests we're about to fall off a cliff and not compete for a Tournament appearance next year.  He had some bad injury/illness luck at Texas, but has otherwise been an awesome college basketball coach.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 20, 2024, 02:10:03 PM
This thread is getting borderline COLE.

Bingo. MU donors just paid $9 million to get rid of a mediocre coach. Now we are told by Scoopers it's all a crapshoot anyway.  Money wasted apparently.

My expectation is less crapping, more shooting.

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 20, 2024, 03:06:26 PM
I have a nagging feeling that this might be the peak under Shaka. 

My goodness...we are in year three with a 46 year old coach.

CT Warrior.
Sheesh. Year 1: with a ragtag team of guys who had basically never played together, Shaka and staff somehow worked magic to make the NCAAs.

Year 2: a team picked for 9th ends up doing what nobody thought possible in their wildest dreams.

Year 3: a team that every single team is placing a target on their backs has a phenomenal start to the season followed by a brief winter swoon followed by another phenomenal run, and now after one beat down by the NO1 team in the land on their own floor Shaka and his staff have all of a sudden plateaued as coaches?

😬 What is it about people from Connecticut and garish, quixotic expectations and grading scales? I'm sure you know ball, and not that you need anyone's approval. I guess I'm honestly just curious as to why you feel this way?

It's never been all about March for me.......the regular season is 4 months long.......having a top 10-25 team matters.....making the tournament matters........everyone here would like a deep run......none of us here have any control over if it happens.

None of our expectations mean squat.......we will root for MU and the season will play out.......when the last game is over we will likely be sad.......just like every other fan base save 1.

It's the nature of sports and it won't change because somebody on a message board thinks it's about time their school gets to another final 4 or wins a championship.

Quote from: wadesworld on February 20, 2024, 03:19:10 PM
Shaka's first year was expected to be bubbly at the very best.  We were safely in the field.  Second year we were supposed to be nowhere close to the Tournament.  We were the best team in the Big East, a Big East that provided the National Champion.  This year he was supposed to have a Final Four contender, and that's what we are.

Will this be Shaka's peak?  I mean, probably?  How many MU teams have been ranked in the top 10 for a huge majority of the season, especially coming off a BE regular season and Tourney title?  Prior to Shaka, I believe our highest seed ever was a 3 seed.  We're probably going to be back to back 2 seeds.

But there is nothing in Shaka's career that suggests we're about to fall off a cliff and not compete for a Tournament appearance next year.  He had some bad injury/illness luck at Texas, but has otherwise been an awesome college basketball coach.

Well said.  I'll add though that it would be great for this team to advance at least to the Elite 8 as that would truly eliminate and get the monkey off the back for Shaka as it relates to NCAA tournament success.  I'm sure he feels a degree of added pressure given his track record thus far and last year's earlier than expected exit.

One of the big reasons I'm so about ncaat success is that I truly believe the tournament is the best event in all of sport. David vs. Goliath, every game is do or die, a smorgasbord of action on the first weekend, a system where being a better team helps, and better teams usually win it all, but anybody can and does win. For the best 4 teams it's 3 weeks long.

That said, my enjoyment of the ncaat largely wanes once MU is not in. Making the second weekend gives me a minimum of 5 more days of thoroughly enjoying the best event in sport.

Quote from: GoFastAndWin on February 20, 2024, 03:27:39 PM
CT Warrior.
Sheesh. Year 1: with a ragtag team of guys who had basically never played together, Shaka and staff somehow worked magic to make the NCAAs.

Year 2: a team picked for 9th ends up doing what nobody thought possible in their wildest dreams.

Year 3: a team that every single team is placing a target on their backs has a phenomenal start to the season followed by a brief winter swoon followed by another phenomenal run, and now after one beat down by the NO1 team in the land on their own floor Shaka and his staff have all of a sudden plateaued as coaches?

😬 What is it about people from Connecticut and garish, quixotic expectations and grading scales? I'm sure you know ball, and not that you need anyone's approval. I guess I'm honestly just curious as to why you feel this way?

Like I said, it's a nagging feeling, a gut feeling.  My tune could easily change in a year.  I watched college basketball for close to 50 years and consistently successful programs regularly bring in freshmen who are impact players year 1.  I think that is the cause of my concern.  With Shaka's guys thus far we seem to project that they will be good in the future, I'd feel better if we saw more of it on the floor now.

I think Shaka is a helluva coach and his first three seasons are proof of that.  I don't worry that he'll extract the most out of the rosters he puts together.  But ultimately you need the horses if you are going to win consistently.

Last year's team had better odds to make the F4 than the actual 2003 F4 team. This year's team, with the current preliminary seed from last Saturday, would be expected to be similar.

https://www.barttorvik.com/cgi-bin/ncaa.cgi?type=team&lookup=Marquette

Quote from: CTWarrior on February 20, 2024, 03:50:24 PM
Like I said, it's a nagging feeling, a gut feeling.  My tune could easily change in a year.  I watched college basketball for close to 50 years and consistently successful programs regularly bring in freshmen who are impact players year 1.  I think that is the cause of my concern.  With Shaka's guys thus far we seem to project that they will be good in the future, I'd feel better if we saw more of it on the floor now.

I think Shaka is a helluva coach and his first three seasons are proof of that.  I don't worry that he'll extract the most out of the rosters he puts together.  But ultimately you need the horses if you are going to win consistently.

Fair enough. I think if truth be told, as much as  thinking others' progression would replace Omax, my guess is that Shaka expected a ton from Tre Norman as far as a defensive plug-in for Omax. I might be off-base on that, but after watching some HS film of Tre, I was super impressed with his D, and last summer Shaka made comments how he expected him to be an immediate contributor. Of course, it's a huge leap from HS to high major D1🏀. Tre is getting it little by little, and I expect a huge jump from him and Zaide next season.

   As far as not hitting the portal for the "now" you speak of, despite the slower than anticipated progress of replacing Omax, I still believe Shaka made the correct decision, especially when you put it into the context of what Goose has discussed as it relates to NIL. Shaka spoke a couple weeks ago of being in a "now hourly battle for the hearts and minds of our guys." That goes with the territory of the new normal. It also goes along with success, so I'm not pointing to red flags. What I'm trying to say is....Imagine how difficult that battle would be if you threw a new highly-paid free agent into the mix?

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 20, 2024, 03:52:12 PM
Last year's team had better odds to make the F4 than the actual 2003 F4 team. This year's team, with the current preliminary seed from last Saturday, would be expected to be similar.

https://www.barttorvik.com/cgi-bin/ncaa.cgi?type=team&lookup=Marquette

I note that, even with the 2 seed, this only gave MU a 54% chance of reaching the Sweet 16.

Maybe a little bit of a reality check that, while it's fine to have high hopes for a deep tournament run, actually doing it is not that easy.

As disappointing as the game against MSU was, if I remember correctly, MU was only abouta a 3 point favorite. So, not exactly the collapse of the decade.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 20, 2024, 03:20:42 PM
Bingo. MU donors just paid $9 million to get rid of a mediocre coach. Now we are told by Scoopers it's all a crapshoot anyway.  Money wasted apparently.

My expectation is less crapping, more shooting.

Most Magnificent Doc:

Mine too.

But is the season a failure if we run into a buzz saw the second weekend? I'd hope not because we've been quite entertaining and a lot of fun to watch. Cripe, it's even bringing me, you and Newsdreams together at Real Chili this weekend!

That, in and of itself, makes the season a success, especially when Newsdreams loses the bet!!!!

The only season failure I'd hang on a tournament loss was 1978.

My point in citing Coach McGuire's losses was that we revere him in spite of too many false starts in the NCAAs. Give us time and we'll revere Coach Shaka too!

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 03:14:44 PM

So you think there is THAT significant enough difference in a Sweet 16 run versus regular season success  that it impacts the "schools (sic) long term viability?" That's a stretch.

Yes - Drake va Gonzaga the last 5 years. Post season success matters.

Quote from: dgies9156 on February 20, 2024, 04:55:46 PM
Most Magnificent Doc:

Mine too.

But is the season a failure if we run into a buzz saw the second weekend? I'd hope not because we've been quite entertaining and a lot of fun to watch. Cripe, it's even bringing me, you and Newsdreams together at Real Chili this weekend!

That, in and of itself, makes the season a success, especially when Newsdreams loses the bet!!!!

The only season failure I'd hang on a tournament loss was 1978.

My point in citing Coach McGuire's losses was that we revere him in spite of too many false starts in the NCAAs. Give us time and we'll revere Coach Shaka too!

Nobody used the words "season failure" or "collapse of the decade" (wisblue). A lot of excuse making in this thread before the fact. We want high expectations, and of course, not hitting them when the team worked hard all year to put themselves into position to succeed, would be a disappointment to any fan.

The rest is COLE. Excuse making is for Projos.

If it doesn't matter why even have a champion?

Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 20, 2024, 05:40:26 PM
If it doesn't matter why even have a champion?

It really should be the Kenpom leader after the regular season.

Quote from: MochaJoe on February 20, 2024, 05:15:09 PM
Yes - Drake va Gonzaga the last 5 years. Post season success matters.

Gonna just have to disagree on that. Completely.

Quote from: MUbiz on February 20, 2024, 11:35:49 AM
Rico gets it.

🤔

Great posts, Dr. B. The amount of fear or angst over an early exit blows me away. COLE has been the mantra for many MU fans for a long time and it has risen with team success. If the last two years had not convinced some fans that future is extremely bright, I do not think they will ever be convinced.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 03:14:44 PM

So you think there is THAT significant enough difference in a Sweet 16 run versus regular season success  that it impacts the "schools (sic) long term viability?" That's a stretch.

I'll say this...when I'm on the east coast for work, if making small talk and college hoops comes up, people know Marquette. 'Great Basketball'. 'Man, you guys are always good'. 'DWade could ball' Blah blah, point is, we are known for hoops...and maybe the dental school 😉. Our hoops success contributes to us being a 'name'. Having this notoriety does contribute to revenue. Revenue...keeps the lights on...especially-so at a time when a college degree is not as valued as it once was.

I never said Marquette wasn't known for hoops. I am saying that knowledge of Marquette due to hoops isn't necessarily due to deep runs in March. Marquette's brand as a basketball school is great despite only being to three S16s in the last 25+ years.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 06:46:56 PM
I never said Marquette wasn't known for hoops. I am saying that knowledge of Marquette due to hoops isn't necessarily due to deep runs in March. Marquette's brand as a basketball school is great despite only being to three S16s in the last 25+ years.

Dont sell us short

Oops...four. Sorry.

Why even play the season - Kenpom is so awesome it should just simulate the entire season? 

Quote from: MochaJoe on February 20, 2024, 05:42:52 PM
It really should be the Kenpom leader after the regular season.

Quote from: Viper on February 20, 2024, 06:33:43 PM
I'll say this...when I'm on the east coast for work, if making small talk and college hoops comes up, people know Marquette. 'Great Basketball'. 'Man, you guys are always good'. 'DWade could ball' Blah blah, point is, we are known for hoops...and maybe the dental school 😉. Our hoops success contributes to us being a 'name'. Having this notoriety does contribute to revenue. Revenue...keeps the lights on...especially-so at a time when a college degree is not as valued as it once was.

I'm guessing you respond with, "How can you think highly of MU basketball when we can't beat RED?!"

Quote from: Viper on February 20, 2024, 06:33:43 PM
I'll say this...when I'm on the east coast for work, if making small talk and college hoops comes up, people know Marquette. 'Great Basketball'. 'Man, you guys are always good'. 'DWade could ball' Blah blah, point is, we are known for hoops...and maybe the dental school 😉. Our hoops success contributes to us being a 'name'. Having this notoriety does contribute to revenue. Revenue...keeps the lights on...especially-so at a time when a college degree is not as valued as it once was.

I live on the east coast, and those comments are often followed by "Marquette is in Michigan, right?"

Quote from: brewcity77 on February 20, 2024, 01:54:31 PM
It's more that I'm not going to be satisfied with the trappings along the way until we reach that destination. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the process, or eventually appreciate the lesser accomplishments, but I'm not going to come out of a S16 finish saying "great, they got that monkey off the back, now I'm happy". I've seen numerous S16s. I'd rather have it than not, but there's really only one thing that will leave me thinking "yes, the season was an unquestioned success."

I get where you're coming from, brew.

I expect victory in every game. I thought we had a good chance to win at UConn, and I certainly think we can beat them at Fiserv. And when we get to the NCAAT, I will expect us to win each game as we advance. There will not be a single game - Purdue or Houston or UConn or whoever - that I will go in saying, "Nope, can't beat 'em."

So I have very high expectations, and I also had them last season once we proved we were an elite Big East team.

But should lightning strike and we lose in the NCAAT, and once I get past the initial disappointment, I'll be able to move on. As will you, I'm guessing.

As for your last line ... we are in 100% agreement on that!

Quote from: mug644 on February 20, 2024, 10:11:00 PM
I live on the east coast, and those comments are often followed by "Marquette is in Michigan, right?"

You get those comments in Michigan, too.
'Way up there?!'

Quote from: PointWarrior on February 20, 2024, 09:42:09 PM
Why even play the season - Kenpom is so awesome it should just simulate the entire season?

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-auburns-bruce-pearl-could-be-coaching-carousel-target-ken-pomeroy-should-be-in-hall-of-fame/

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 20, 2024, 03:26:58 PM
My goodness...we are in year three with a 46 year old coach.

aGREE. iT'S more of a plateau than a peak, meaning we could be in this rarified air consistently.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 21, 2024, 06:33:57 AM
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-auburns-bruce-pearl-could-be-coaching-carousel-target-ken-pomeroy-should-be-in-hall-of-fame/

It's a joke geeko.

I figured someone with such incredible comedic sense would pick that up.

Quote from: MochaJoe on February 21, 2024, 08:19:31 AM
It's a joke geeko.

I figured someone with such incredible comedic sense would pick that up.

It isn't for Point Warrior

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 20, 2024, 03:20:42 PM
Bingo. MU donors just paid $9 million to get rid of a mediocre coach. Now we are told by Scoopers it's all a crapshoot anyway.  Money wasted apparently.

My expectation is less crapping, more shooting.

Donors paid because of lack of tournament success AND mediocre regular season results.

If Shaka brings home a 2 seed every year,  it doesn't matter what he does in the tournament,  he'll have an ice cold seat.  Keep collecting those bites at the apple. Eventually,  you'll breakthrough

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 21, 2024, 11:39:39 AM
Donors paid because of lack of tournament success AND mediocre regular season results.

If Shaka brings home a 2 seed every year,  it doesn't matter what he does in the tournament,  he'll have an ice cold seat.  Keep collecting those bites at the apple. Eventually,  you'll breakthrough

If second-seeded MU gets knocked out in the first or second round every year, Shaka's seat will not stay ice cold.
At some point, winning in the regular season no longer is a pleasant surprise. It will become the baseline. And then tourney success will need to follow or the fans will get antsy.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 21, 2024, 12:18:33 PM
If second-seeded MU gets knocked out in the first or second round every year, Shaka's seat will not stay ice cold.
At some point, winning in the regular season no longer is a pleasant surprise. It will become the baseline. And then tourney success will need to follow or the fans will get antsy.

Name a coach whos been fired immediately after earning a 2 seed without any of the court issues.

All about bites at the apple

BUT, I concede that "ice cold seat" was the wrong terminology to use. Fans would definitely be frustrated and its possible that the next bad season they would take action. What I should have said is "no chance he gets fired immediately after earning a 2 seed".

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 21, 2024, 11:39:39 AM
Donors paid because of lack of tournament success AND mediocre regular season results.

If Shaka brings home a 2 seed every year,  it doesn't matter what he does in the tournament,  he'll have an ice cold seat.  Keep collecting those bites at the apple. Eventually,  you'll breakthrough

While I agree (and again, no one is seriously saying that most wouldn't love that performance), I bring up Tom Crean. There comes a point where bites at the apple aren't enough for a certain influential group or where a coach feels it's time to move on.

In Crean's case, going back to the well every year asking for more money came with higher accountabilities from Cottingham as Crean after Wade consistently underperformed in the NCAAs. Now, Shaka isn't Crean on many levels (thank the lord) but his post season performance became a rub, even at a patient school like MU.

As to bites at the apple, Shaka has underperformed those expectations  8 out of 10 trips, with the exception of his first two VCU trips if you believe this. Crean-like. Let's hope Shaka breaks through this season as that drought of 8 is exactly why he wound up at MU.

https://www.barttorvik.com/cgi-bin/ncaa.cgi?lookup=Shaka%20Smart&type=coach

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 21, 2024, 12:23:49 PM
Name a coach whos been fired immediately after earning a 2 seed without any of the court issues.

Name a coach who's ever earned a two seed every year only to lose in the first weekend every year.
Your hypothetical really has no comp.

I just think you're overestimating fans, Marquette or otherwise, if you think they'd be content with an endless run of good regular seasons accompanied by first-weekend exits.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 21, 2024, 12:35:09 PM
While I agree (and again, no one is seriously saying that most wouldn't love that performance), I bring up Tom Crean. There comes a point where bites at the apple aren't enough for a certain influential group or where a coach feels it's time to move on.

In Crean's case, going back to the well every year asking for more money came with higher accountabilities from Cottingham as Crean after Wade consistently underperformed in the NCAAs. Now, Shaka isn't Crean on many levels (thank the lord) but his post season performance became a rub, even at a patient school like MU.

As to bites at the apple, Shaka has underperformed those expectations  8 out of 10 trips, with the exception of his first two VCU trips if you believe this. Crean-like. Let's hope Shaka breaks through this season as that drought of 8 is exactly why he wound up at MU.

https://www.barttorvik.com/cgi-bin/ncaa.cgi?lookup=Shaka%20Smart&type=coach

I don't understand this. If in 2022, the chance of making the round of 32 was about 25%, how could he underperform seed expectations?

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 21, 2024, 12:23:49 PM
Name a coach whos been fired immediately after earning a 2 seed without any of the court issues.

All about bites at the apple

BUT, I concede that "ice cold seat" was the wrong terminology to use. Fans would definitely be frustrated and its possible that the next bad season they would take action. What I should have said is "no chance he gets fired immediately after earning a 2 seed".

Close. Bill Guthridge. Two Final 4s in three years.

Guthridge wasn't fired.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 21, 2024, 12:38:30 PM

I don't understand this. If in 2022, the chance of making the round of 32 was about 25%, how could he underperform seed expectations?

He doesn't document his methodology so here is my informed guess.  It was a 8/9 game (seed toss up, slight UNC predicted edge) and UNC beat MU by the biggest margin in the history of 8/9 seeds (versus the expected outcome being close). Thus, MU underperformed (the negative numbers). 

How about we just enjoy the prospect for multiple low seeds rather than creating or defending a scenario where we judge it a failure

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 21, 2024, 12:45:22 PM
Guthridge wasn't fired.

Fine. He was presented his retirement package at the door.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 21, 2024, 12:51:27 PM
How about we just enjoy the prospect for multiple low seeds rather than creating or defending a scenario where we judge it a failure

Sir, this is an Arby's.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 21, 2024, 12:49:30 PM
He doesn't document his methodology so here is my informed guess.  It was a 8/9 game (seed toss up, slight UNC predicted edge) and UNC beat MU by the biggest margin in the history of 8/9 seeds (versus the expected outcome being close). Thus, MU underperformed (the negative numbers). 

OK. So the result of the game is included there and not just the absolute result. Thanks.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 21, 2024, 12:51:27 PM
How about we just enjoy the prospect for multiple low seeds rather than creating or defending a scenario where we judge it a failure

Failure and disappointment (the poll) are two different things. I don't consider the Ditka Bears failures but the fact they could never repeat was a major disappointment. Wojo was a failure while Shaka excels. I expect victory. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 21, 2024, 12:45:22 PM
Guthridge wasn't fired.

Neither was Oliver Purnell or Bruce Weber.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 21, 2024, 12:52:29 PM
Fine. He was presented his retirement package at the door.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 21, 2024, 01:35:59 PM
Neither was Oliver Purnell or Bruce Weber.

Guthridge left at the end of June. If it was actually a firing in everything but the name, then they did it very poorly given the timing. And it being so late was why Roy Williams turned it down and they went with Matt Doherty instead.

My recollection is that he saw the writing on the wall and left.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 21, 2024, 12:38:30 PM

I don't understand this. If in 2022, the chance of making the round of 32 was about 25%, how could he underperform seed expectations?

I assume it is because we lost, which means we won 0 games when we were expected to win 0.25.   So we underperformed for that season.  Looking at it to do a year by year analysis like that is probably not a good idea, since if you were in that situation 4 times and won 1 game, you would have been exactly at expectation but 1 - 3 by that metric (one year you did .75 better and the other three years you did .25 worse).

If you just looked at it by expectation vs speed, the over performing vs underperforming would come out more reasonably.  At any rate, I don't think anyone denies Shaka has underperformed in the NCAAs since he left VCU and MU has too since Buzz left.

Right

Shaka AND MU have way underperformed for 10 years in the
NCAAT.   It HAS to be this year ... if not now , when ??!

Quote from: Mu8891 on February 21, 2024, 05:19:39 PM
Right

Shaka AND MU have way underperformed for 10 years in the
NCAAT.   It HAS to be this year ... if not now , when ??!

(In a booming, dramatic voice) And if not us, who?

Quote from: Mu8891 on February 21, 2024, 05:19:39 PM
Right

Shaka AND MU have way underperformed for 10 years in the
NCAAT.   It HAS to be this year ... if not now , when ??!

Whenever.

Ready for Wardle

Y'all are delusional with nothin' better to do than tryin' to get a rise outta folks here. Shaka is the best coach and steward of the men's basketball program at MU since Al, bar none. Sit back and enjoy the view. We are in a most enviable position with Smart drivin' the bus. BTW, there is not, nor should there be, any heat on his ass, regardless of how this season ends up, aina?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 26, 2024, 11:59:20 AM
Y'all are delusional with nothin' better to do than tryin' to get a rise outta folks here. Shaka is the best coach and steward of the men's basketball program at MU since Al, bar none. Sit back and enjoy the view. We are in a most enviable position with Smart drivin' the bus. BTW, there is not, nor should there be, any heat on his ass, regardless of how this season ends up, aina?

I think you'll turn out to be correct long term but through just shy of 3 years I think Buzz is still ahead. If Shaka had to retire or leave today id rank it buzz, shaka, Crean, O'Neil, Raymonds, Wojo, deane, majerus, dukiet.

Shaka's trajectory is certainly on pace to be the best at MU sans Al (including Hickey and Nagle) but if we equate last year and this to 2012 & 2013 then it's slightly better in regular season but short of the March success (tbd this year), if equate 2022 with 2011 it's roughly the same maybe slightly better regular season but short march success.  His seat is definitely not warm in the slightest and his program seems 1000x more stable than Buzz's though.

I think Shaka has earned an extremely long leash at this university - not because of the winning but because he keeps this program clean. Just look back at the Wojo years - you can tell the administration valued that he kept the program clean. Especially after the last few Buzz years/scandals.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 26, 2024, 12:16:44 PM
I think you'll turn out to be correct long term but through just shy of 3 years I think Buzz is still ahead. If Shaka had to retire or leave today id rank it buzz, shaka, Crean, O'Neil, Raymonds, Wojo, deane, majerus, dukiet.

Not sure why, but Crean seems way underappreciated around here (IMO).
He took over a program very much headed in the wrong direction, on a far worse trajectory than we were headed under Wojo.
He recruited the best player in school history, had the best season since 1977, helped create an atmosphere that allowed for a sorely needed investment in facilities (i.e. The Al) and put the program in position to be invited to the Big East. And to top it off, he's the guy who brought your #1 coach to Marquette.
He isn't quite the program savior that O'Neill was, but it's pretty darn close. Ranking him behind Buzz is debatable, ranking him behind Shaka (as of now) is even moreso I'm a huge fan of what Shaka has done, but he inherited a much better situation and, barring a Final Four appearance this year, has done less with it.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 26, 2024, 12:43:06 PM
Not sure why, but Crean seems way underappreciated around here (IMO).
He took over a program very much headed in the wrong direction, on a far worse trajectory than we were headed under Wojo.
He recruited the best player in school history, had the best season since 1977, helped create an atmosphere that allowed for a sorely needed investment in facilities (i.e. The Al) and put the program in position to be invited to the Big East. And to top it off, he's the guy who brought your #1 coach to Marquette.
He isn't quite the program savior that O'Neill was, but it's pretty darn close. Ranking him behind Buzz is debatable, ranking him behind Shaka (as of now) is even moreso I'm a huge fan of what Shaka has done, but he inherited a much better situation and, barring a Final Four appearance this year, has done less with it.

I agree with most of what you said.

I think that there are two reasons why Crean is under appreciated/disliked:

1) "It's Indiana." As much as it pissed people off -- including me, it wasn't an unreasonable take at the time. Amazing how times have changed.

2) This GIF. On this one, there is no defending Crean.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/VsXojc6UpiLb8pqm6D5smRET4NU=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3489756/uncomfortable.0.gif)

Quote from: Pakuni on February 26, 2024, 12:43:06 PM
Not sure why, but Crean seems way underappreciated around here (IMO).
He took over a program very much headed in the wrong direction, on a far worse trajectory than we were headed under Wojo.
He recruited the best player in school history, had the best season since 1977, helped create an atmosphere that allowed for a sorely needed investment in facilities (i.e. The Al) and put the program in position to be invited to the Big East. And to top it off, he's the guy who brought your #1 coach to Marquette.
He isn't quite the program savior that O'Neill was, but it's pretty darn close. Ranking him behind Buzz is debatable, ranking him behind Shaka (as of now) is even moreso I'm a huge fan of what Shaka has done, but he inherited a much better situation and, barring a Final Four appearance this year, has done less with it.

I'll grant that he rebuilt the program after Deane basically tanked what KO did, and hired buzz built the Al etc and I did have him number 2 initially.

However, after I think the fact that he ended up in the NIT back to back with two future NBA players (one year where they were both upper classmen) has soured many, along with him doing nothing in march with 3 years of 3 of the best players in the post Al era and 2yrs of a 4th also soured many. And with those considerations compared to Shakas titles I opted for Shaka above him. as of now it's debatable, though even if we give Crean credit for Buzz's 08-09 year (warranted given 4 of the starters) I think buzz still pulls ahead imo.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 26, 2024, 11:59:20 AM
Shaka is the best coach and steward of the men's basketball program at MU since Al, bar none. Sit back and enjoy the view. We are in a most enviable position with Smart drivin' the bus. BTW, there is not, nor should there be, any heat on his ass, regardless of how this season ends up, aina?

Dat's right, hey.

Quote from: Pakuni on February 26, 2024, 12:43:06 PM
Not sure why, but Crean seems way underappreciated around here (IMO).
He took over a program very much headed in the wrong direction, on a far worse trajectory than we were headed under Wojo.
He recruited the best player in school history, had the best season since 1977, helped create an atmosphere that allowed for a sorely needed investment in facilities (i.e. The Al) and put the program in position to be invited to the Big East. And to top it off, he's the guy who brought your #1 coach to Marquette.
He isn't quite the program savior that O'Neill was, but it's pretty darn close. Ranking him behind Buzz is debatable, ranking him behind Shaka (as of now) is even moreso I'm a huge fan of what Shaka has done, but he inherited a much better situation and, barring a Final Four appearance this year, has done less with it.

Simple, despite having a week to prepare for a fast breaking Kansas team, he had no answer and crapped himself on college basketball's biggest stage. He didn't "just" lose, his team got embarrassed and spanked. In short, Crean's a phony, a fraud, and a prick. We celebrate the 16th Annual FFC Day in a little over a month. Rejoice Warrior nation. Our day will come, hey?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 26, 2024, 01:06:03 PM


Simple, despite having a week to prepare for a fast breaking Kansas team, he had no answer and crapped himself on college basketball's biggest stage. He didn't "just" lose, his team got embarrassed and spanked. In short, Crean's a phony, a fraud, and a prick. We celebrate the 16th Annual FFC Day in a little over a month. Rejoice Warrior nation. Our day will come, hey?

No Marquette coach before or since has been blown out in a tournament game.
Can't even remember that time Buzz's squad put up 39 points in an Elite 8 game.

By your own admission, "He recruited the best player in school history, had the best season since 1977." Add in that he's a phony, a fraud, and a prick and there you have it, hey?

When you listen to the loudest Crean critics, you know he did something right

Quote from: Pakuni on February 26, 2024, 01:29:53 PM
No Marquette coach before or since has been blown out in a tournament game.
Can't even remember that time Buzz's squad put up 39 points in an Elite 8 game.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game/_/gameId/401408583

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 26, 2024, 01:40:06 PM
When you listen to the loudest Crean critics, you know he did something right

Yep.

Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 26, 2024, 01:40:28 PM
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game/_/gameId/401408583

You know since the Washington loss we have been largely non competitive when eliminated from the tournament.

2011: UNC kicks our ass

2012: Florida embarrassed us even though the score wasn't horrendous.

2013: record for lowest points scored iirc

2017: South Carolina put on a clinic

2019: Murray St put on a clinic

2022: UNC kicked the living crap out of us

2023: MSU was close but we basically looked confused and disinterested. I guess this was competitive but more like both teams trying to lose than either trying to win.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 26, 2024, 01:49:54 PM
Yep.

There was a subset of fans who believed Marquette could never return to the heights achieved under Al when Crean got hired.  After listening to things said by O'Neill and Deane, they bought into that idea. 

Crean challenged that notion while embracing the past.  He challenged the alpha in their league at the time, Cincinnati.  Went toe-to-toe with Louisville and Pitino and shepherded Marquette into the Big East, something unfathomable not that long before his hiring.  Not only went into the Big East but wasn't bullied by the powers of the league.

No, Crean wasn't a great in-game coach but he helped prove those wrong who said Marquette couldn't rise again.  Maybe Shaka is the guy that returns them, but the foundation was laid by Crean and the department that hired him

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 26, 2024, 01:53:43 PM
You know since the Washington loss we have been largely non competitive when eliminated from the tournament.

2011: UNC kicks our ass

2012: Florida embarrassed us even though the score wasn't horrendous.

2013: record for lowest points scored iirc

2017: South Carolina put on a clinic

2019: Murray St put on a clinic

2022: UNC kicked the living crap out of us

2023: MSU was close but we basically looked confused and disinterested. I guess this was competitive but more like both teams trying to lose than either trying to win.

I disagree with 2012 and 2023 to an extent. The rest are spot on.

I was at the 2012 game and I didn't think we got embarrassed. We had a lot of shots that could have swung momentum that we just didn't make. DJO and Crowder went 3/14 on threes, just picked a bad time to have a cold shooting game. We had a better OR%, only 9 turnovers, and got to the line more than Florida.

Just not going to beat many solid teams shooting 30% from the field.

Quote from: BM1090 on February 26, 2024, 01:58:50 PM
I disagree with 2012 and 2023 to an extent. The rest are spot on.

I was at the 2012 game and I didn't think we got embarrassed. We had a lot of shots that could have swung momentum that we just didn't make. DJO and Crowder went 3/14 on threes, just picked a bad time to have a cold shooting game. We had a better OR%, only 9 turnovers, and got to the line more than Florida.

Just not going to beat many solid teams shooting 30% from the field.

Yeah, '12 was frustrating because that game was there for the taking.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 26, 2024, 01:57:46 PM
There was a subset of fans who believed Marquette could never return to the heights achieved under Al when Crean got hired.  After listening to things said by O'Neill and Deane, they bought into that idea. 

Crean challenged that notion while embracing the past.  He challenged the alpha in their league at the time, Cincinnati.  Went toe-to-toe with Louisville and Pitino and shepherded Marquette into the Big East, something unfathomable not that long before his hiring.  Not only went into the Big East but wasn't bullied by the powers of the league.

No, Crean wasn't a great in-game coach but he helped prove those wrong who said Marquette couldn't rise again.  Maybe Shaka is the guy that returns them, but the foundation was laid by Crean and the department that hired him

He made the unforgiveable sin of looking like he wanted to talk to anyone else in the room when introduced to a certain dentist.

Surprising I know.

Quote from: BM1090 on February 26, 2024, 01:58:50 PM
I disagree with 2012 and 2023 to an extent. The rest are spot on.

I was at the 2012 game and I didn't think we got embarrassed. We had a lot of shots that could have swung momentum that we just didn't make. DJO and Crowder went 3/14 on threes, just picked a bad time to have a cold shooting game. We had a better OR%, only 9 turnovers, and got to the line more than Florida.

Just not going to beat many solid teams shooting 30% from the field.

I was admittedly very drunk and watching from replay up on north Ave but I just remember their twin tower 7fters (young was one's name I think) destroying us in the paint and Vander being outclassed by Beal.

2023 I'll give you is a stretch but I still don't think either team looked good there.

2012 was my fault. I bought gator meat from a butcher in Chicago and was making gator stew. Some friends came over, we started to party, I got high as I was cooking, forgot about it, and burnt the meat. After that we got our asses kicked. I'll never forgive myself

Quote from: swoopem on February 26, 2024, 02:19:28 PM
2012 was my fault. I bought gator meat from a butcher in Chicago and was making gator stew. Some friends came over, we started to party, I got high as I was cooking, forgot about it, and burnt the meat. After that we got our asses kicked. I'll never forgive myself

As they say in Florida, "Friends don't let friends grow up to eat gator" -- unless it is the Gainesville kind!

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 26, 2024, 01:57:46 PM
There was a subset of fans who believed Marquette could never return to the heights achieved under Al when Crean got hired.  After listening to things said by O'Neill and Deane, they bought into that idea. 

Crean challenged that notion while embracing the past.  He challenged the alpha in their league at the time, Cincinnati.  Went toe-to-toe with Louisville and Pitino and shepherded Marquette into the Big East, something unfathomable not that long before his hiring.  Not only went into the Big East but wasn't bullied by the powers of the league.

No, Crean wasn't a great in-game coach but he helped prove those wrong who said Marquette couldn't rise again.  Maybe Shaka is the guy that returns them, but the foundation was laid by Crean and the department that hired him

You nailed it, Rico.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 26, 2024, 01:40:06 PM
When you listen to the loudest Crean critics, you know he did something right

Dentists, hey?

I agree with Pak and Rico about Crean, and I appreciate all he did to bring the program back to the big stage.

Other than the one big year, he didn't do enough with the talent he had. And the way he exited understandably upset lots of MU fans. But Crean did a ton of positive stuff for the Marquette basketball program.

Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2024, 10:07:06 PM
I agree with Pak and Rico about Crean, and I appreciate all he did to bring the program back to the big stage.

Other than the one big year, he didn't do enough with the talent he had. And the way he exited understandably upset lots of MU fans. But Crean did a ton of positive stuff for the Marquette basketball program.

But would you put him over shaka?  buzz?

Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 26, 2024, 01:57:46 PM
There was a subset of fans who believed Marquette could never return to the heights achieved under Al when Crean got hired.  After listening to things said by O'Neill and Deane, they bought into that idea. 

Crean challenged that notion while embracing the past.  He challenged the alpha in their league at the time, Cincinnati.  Went toe-to-toe with Louisville and Pitino and shepherded Marquette into the Big East, something unfathomable not that long before his hiring.  Not only went into the Big East but wasn't bullied by the powers of the league.

No, Crean wasn't a great in-game coach but he helped prove those wrong who said Marquette couldn't rise again.  Maybe Shaka is the guy that returns them, but the foundation was laid by Crean and the department that hired him

Agreed.  O'Neill saved the program from ruin.  But support for the program went way up because of Crean's tenure.  Definitely laid the foundation for getting a coach like Shaka to MU. 

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on February 27, 2024, 05:50:23 AM
Agreed.  O'Neill saved the program from ruin.  But support for the program went way up because of Crean's tenure.  Definitely laid the foundation for getting a coach like Shaka to MU.

And, unlike Buzz, Crean's worked hard to re-establish/re-habiliate himself in the MU community as a kind of elder statesman - like when mediocre presidents end up commanding more respect after they're out of office. I bear no ill-will towards Crean and think he is currently a net positive to the program.

I don't believe Buzz or Marquette want anything to do with one another these days.

I certainly hope MU stays a long way away from Buzz. I too have been impressed with Crean's efforts to reconnect with MU.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 27, 2024, 07:59:52 AM
I don't believe Buzz or Marquette want anything to do with one another these days.

Buzz didn't come to the 100 yr celebration, all other coaches did.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 26, 2024, 11:13:10 PM
But would you put him over shaka?  buzz?

I'd put Buzz and Crean roughly even. Crean brought in the best player in school history, made the only post-Al Final Four, brought in the Amigos, worked to get MU into the Big East, etc. Buzz was brought into the program by Crean and was handed an NCAAT team. But Buzz then sustained success at a high level with the S16-S16-E8 run; of course, there also were off-the-court issues.

As I said, I appreciate what both brought to the program.

Shaka has been incredible, exceeding all my expectations so far. But he hasn't been at Marquette long enough, or had enough late-March success, to be in comparisons yet. For example, Crean got to the Final Four in Year 4. Let's at least see how Shaka wraps up Year 3 before comparing them.

Quote from: MU82 on February 27, 2024, 10:06:32 PM
I'd put Buzz and Crean roughly even. Crean brought in the best player in school history, made the only post-Al Final Four, brought in the Amigos, worked to get MU into the Big East, etc. Buzz was brought into the program by Crean and was handed an NCAAT team. But Buzz then sustained success at a high level with the S16-S16-E8 run; of course, there also were off-the-court issues.

As I said, I appreciate what both brought to the program.

Shaka has been incredible, exceeding all my expectations so far. But he hasn't been at Marquette long enough, or had enough late-March success, to be in comparisons yet. For example, Crean got to the Final Four in Year 4. Let's at least see how Shaka wraps up Year 3 before comparing them.

agreed. Shaka seems to be held in very high regard on Scoop, yet has 1 ncaa tournament win. As you correctly state, let's wait. If we go down in the 1st rd, what's the opinion of Shaka then? I thought KO was awesome. Imagine cleaning-up the Dukiet mess?  Things are good now, but how's '23/24 play out, and can success be maintained beyond?

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 07:18:04 AM
agreed. Shaka seems to be held in very high regard on Scoop, yet has 1 ncaa tournament win.

I mean, he's been in two NCAA tourneys here. And if you're NOT very high on a guy who has put together two, top 10 seasons, I have no idea what to tell you.

There hasn't been a February swoon, unlike some schools in Madison. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 28, 2024, 07:38:13 AM

I mean, he's been in two NCAA tourneys here. And if you're NOT very high on a guy who has put together two, top 10 seasons, I have no idea what to tell you.

did I say I don't hold the guy in high regard? And yeah, your posts indicate more often than not you have no idea.

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 08:07:19 AM
did I say I don't hold the guy in high regard?

You implied it.

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 08:07:19 AM
And yeah, your posts indicate more often than not you have no idea.

My fault for expecting posters to use logic and clear thinking. I will dumb myself down when dealing with you in the future.

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 07:18:04 AM
agreed. Shaka seems to be held in very high regard on Scoop, yet has 1 ncaa tournament win. As you correctly state, let's wait. If we go down in the 1st rd, what's the opinion of Shaka then? I thought KO was awesome. Imagine cleaning-up the Dukiet mess?  Things are good now, but how's '23/24 play out, and can success be maintained beyond?

For clarity: I hold Shaka in VERY high regard. I am amazed at how well we've done under his leadership, and I absolutely love watching us play such an exciting (and successful) brand of basketball. As a bonus, it has been fun that several of my friends have re-discovered Marquette hoops after having been apathetic for years - going to games with them again after so many years has been a blast.

But when asked to make comparisons with coaches who were at Marquette for significantly longer tenures and who had NCAAT success, I'm not quite ready to make those comparisons. I am NOT saying Shaka isn't as good or better than Buzz/Crean. I'm saying I want to see more before making such specific comparisons.

Quote from: MU82 on February 28, 2024, 10:56:54 AM
For clarity: I hold Shaka in VERY high regard. I am amazed at how well we've done under his leadership, and I absolutely love watching us play such an exciting (and successful) brand of basketball. As a bonus, it has been fun that several of my friends have re-discovered Marquette hoops after having been apathetic for years - going to games with them again after so many years has been a blast.

But when asked to make comparisons with coaches who were at Marquette for significantly longer tenures and who had NCAAT success, I'm not quite ready to make those comparisons. I am NOT saying Shaka isn't as good or better than Buzz/Crean. I'm saying I want to see more before making such specific comparisons.

MU 82, five years?  :)

Quote from: romey on February 28, 2024, 12:32:36 PM
MU 82, five years?  :)

Nah, it only took me 4 years to graduate (though I'm not sure how!), so it shouldn't take me longer than that to judge.

Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 28, 2024, 09:10:16 AM
You implied it.

My fault for expecting posters to use logic and clear thinking. I will dumb myself down when dealing with you in the future.

...dealing with me? Classic, just classic! A-hole factor 2nd to none.

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 01:51:18 PM
...dealing with me? Classic, just classic! A-hole factor 2nd to none.

Thank you. I don't do things half-a$$.

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 01:51:18 PM
...dealing with me? Classic, just classic! A-hole factor 2nd to none.

Hey! Why does Sultan rate #1???????

Quote from: lawdog77 on February 28, 2024, 03:01:20 PM
Hey! Why does Sultan rate #1???????

Because NolongerWarriors got banned.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 28, 2024, 03:05:04 PM
Because NolongerWarriors got banned.

really?...banned? Hurt someone's feelings? Come on, free NoLonger!

I don't think NoLonger held the top spot prior to being banned. Viper may be on to something with his thoughts on top billing.

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 04:35:32 PM
really?...banned? Hurt someone's feelings? Come on, free NoLonger!

Would it make you feel better if you knew the guy was a Badger fan?

Quote from: Viper on February 28, 2024, 08:07:19 AM
did I say I don't hold the guy in high regard? And yeah, your posts indicate more often than not you have no idea.

I'm high